Would you buy a "finished" tree?

I would not......I enjoy the creative process and seeing something come from nothing. Don't have anything against it though. What I would like to see in exhibitions, is for the tree to have its provenance listed (if there is one). All the people that have owned it. They do it for stones, the should do it for trees. I saw Penelope displayed at the national with no mention of Nick Lenz. Weather you like it or not he's due recognition, as well as any other owner.

Adair M said:

So, how long after buying it does it become "yours" and showable?

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Lots of parameters. I think mostly there are two types of finished trees. Ones you buy and maintain, and those you buy and change. Many of the Japanese magazines I have, (years and years of magazines) show many trees that masters have aquired and changed so drastically that the remnants of the original tree are gone forever.

We have had many threads here about this. Maybe its time for a couple threads?

Oh BTW, when you pay the money its yours! Who's work and vision is it, let your conscience be your guide.

Cypress187 said:

I would want to be able to sell all my finished tree's, but reading this threat nobody will buy them. Is it better to sell un-finished tree's?

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Sounds to me that most on this thread WOULD buy finished trees.

And, yes, trees are never "finished". We all know they need continued care and maintenance.

Someone mentioned buying one of Suthin's trees... How long would you call it a "Suthin" tree? A year? Two? Until it needs to be rewired?

Smoke said:

Lots of parameters. I think mostly there are two types of finished trees. Ones you buy and maintain, and those you buy and change. Many of the Japanese magazines I have, (years and years of magazines) show many trees that masters have aquired and changed so drastically that the remnants of the original tree are gone forever.

We have had many threads here about this. Maybe its time for a couple threads?

Oh BTW, when you pay the money its yours! Who's work and vision is it, let your conscience be your guide.

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Al, I've seen those, too. I'm not sure I've always liked the "new" tree better.

But here's a hypothetical:

Let's say you show one of your little pigs at a show. Someone makes you an offer you can't refuse, so you sell it. The new buyer has a "professional" work it. And then, they show it in a different show.

Who should get the credits?

Mudroot said:

Shoot, I'd maybe even pay to get someone to FINISH MINE!

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Ah! That sounds like material for a new thread!

Adair M said:

Who should get the credits?

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Both people

ABCarve said:

Both people

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Along with the years that they owned it.

These two are finished, would anyone like to buy them?

Another twist... The tree in question turns out to be 250 years old, a tree truly worthy of a master class rating. You purchase it from someone who cared for, and maintained it for 10 years (or any time frame really) There may have been 10 people in this trees history who developed the tree to the standard its at today. Personally I would buy it if money were no option. Who do I say styled it? The tree is now mine, how long do I need to care for it, if I choose not to restyle it, before I can say its "mine" I did this!?

Pierre, you've added a new twist!

Consider this one:

Boon owns a tree he imported from Japan 20 years ago. Over the years, he has worked it many times, but so have many of his students! I've worked on it, I know of at least a dozen others who have worked on it. And I'm sure there's many more of his students I haven't met who have worked on it.

Boon shows the tree fairly often. Who should get the credit?

Couple of thoughts..1) If you love and are inspired by a tree and have a chance to aquire it, do it...the pleasure of viewing and taking care of it is a huge part of the bonsai expirience (to me). 2) haven't been to many shows but I suggest the ID card on exhibit should always list artist and owner...for many of you it would be both, for someone with a 200 year old specimen it might be artist unknown or a list if the paperwork is in order...finally, I collected some Cedar Elms this year...I can already tell a few of them will not need that much refinement...lucky me! Does that mean I'm just the owner?

Sure I would buy a finished tree/tree that fits the "proper" bonsai pot it's growing in, and I would be happy to have it.

Would I consider it "my tree"? Sure -- after a few years, during which I've cared for it, developed it further, made my mark on it.
Would I prefer to "grow my own"? Sure -- but I might not have the time to do that.
Why do I do this? I love it! No matter what activity that is bonsai related.

Background:

As someone who enjoys working with bonsai, I'm only four years old. (Physically = white hair, retired, etc.)
For two years I killed every tree I worked on (stubborn know-it-all that I am). Well -- almost all. I still have one of the junipers, the first raw material I learned on. I have a fond spot in my heart for it, but I really miss the others.
At this point, I've gotten better at handling what I'm comfortable with, I have about a dozen plants in the ground growing out, I have more in grow pots, and I lost only one to our unusually harsh winters in the last two years. I even have a few trees in "real" bonsai pots that I'm not embarrassed for others to see.

On top of that, I am now very happy to care for two of our club trees. I'm sure they look better now than they did when they came home with me.

What a joy! Every part of it!

I love taking something common and unattractive, and making it something beautiful to see. I used to tell my students that art is what separates us from the other animals. (That might not be true, but I like it.)

I enjoy fully the day-to-day work involved in maintaining all the trees on my benches, stands, and flower/vegetable garden. My one-year-old shimpaku, my baby JM, my workshop JBP, my thirty-year-old Satsuki, my seedlings, my developing penjing -- all of them!

When I get a little frustrated by the lack of "finishing" I see in my personal trees, I remember how far I've come and I'm excited all over again.

And when I take the time to stop what I'm doing and actually look at what's there? I'm overwhelmed. By the babies in the ground, by the developing trees in pots, by the few that wouldn't embarrass me if others saw them, by the club trees.

Do I want more? Absolutely!

Would buying a "finished" tree make my day? Probably not.
Would I claim it was "mine"? To my wife, right away; to my children and friends, later; to other, a few years from now.

But I would absolutely do it. And enjoy it just like I do the trees I have now.

It would just be another facet of a hobby/artistic endeavor/activity that I truly enjoy hours every day.

Jim

A tree that is styled and completed to me may not be finished to someone else. I'm kind of picky about things i like in a tree. So they may have other ways to improve and grow the tree.
There are trees I have tried to change that I wish I would've just maintained.
I have no finished trees. Yes I would buy a stunning finished tree. As others have said I couldn't/wouldn't show it as my own though.

Buying finished trees isn't that appealing to me. I enjoy the work and the change and the development more. The journey, not the destination. I've bought a handful of trees from estate or moving sales, but always something that I wanted to do something different with.

As to if I would or would not show it as my own... Lets look at it and break it down. I paid for it, it is now mine. I bought it for what it is? Or did I buy it for what I think it can/should be?
Well If I work on it, style it, alter it from what it was, to what it can be, I can show it and take credit for styling it. Anybody would not have an issue with that. OR I maintain the tree as is, pinch/prune/wire and show the tree as a single piece at a show, or in my collection. Is it any less mine? Would I take credit for its current state? To a point.
Let me ask you this... Pick a well known Japanese bonsai practitioner/professional/master. Do you think he personally grew, developed, pruned and wired every tree in his collection to its current show status? When he shows the tree, does anybody doubt it's his or question its history? Personally, I think not. Would I tell him the tree isn't his? Not me!
It was mentioned in this thread Boon has a tree. Its his, though many people have worked on it recently and many more likely before he owned it. So if he places it in a show. Who gets credit for the tree? Me thinks its Boon's tree.

PierreR said:

Another twist... The tree in question turns out to be 250 years old, a tree truly worthy of a master class rating. You purchase it from someone who cared for, and maintained it for 10 years (or any time frame really) There may have been 10 people in this trees history who developed the tree to the standard its at today. Personally I would buy it if money were no option. Who do I say styled it? The tree is now mine, how long do I need to care for it, if I choose not to restyle it, before I can say its "mine" I did this!?

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I think that everyone who works on the tree should carve their intials in it.

For me, I'd really only buy a "finished" (no tree is ever finished) tree if it would take years and years to create in my environment. For me, that's Ficus. The Ficus I'm looking to buy from Suthin has an 8 inch base, which would easily take years and years and years to grow up north. It will be up to me to repot it into my own soil with my own choice of pot and do my own work to the tree.

Here's a finished one that someone offered to buy. It wouldn't fit in their car.

Sorry, ABCarve, I'm not going to "like" your last post!

Lol!!

I don't think you're serious.

Here's the tree I spoke about at Boon's:



Here's a picture of me, totally wiped out after removing the wire that Peter Tea had put on two years previous, and pulling needles, and thinning:



The tree is nicknamed "Godzilla". All of Boon's advanced students have worked on Gozilla.

Adair M said:

Pierre, you've added a new twist!

Consider this one:

Boon owns a tree he imported from Japan 20 years ago. Over the years, he has worked it many times, but so have many of his students! I've worked on it, I know of at least a dozen others who have worked on it. And I'm sure there's many more of his students I haven't met who have worked on it.

Boon shows the tree fairly often. Who should get the credit?

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Like I said, let your conscience be your guide.

Frequent readers to my blog will notice that all the trees there, with the exception of the three little pigs and my pyracanthas are listed by the owners from whom I aquired them.