Seiju!
- Thread starter JoeR
- Start date
Nothing, I've purchased a number of nice trees over the years.....but buying trees will never result in the same level of personal satisfaction as growing your own. Not everything you see as bonsai is growable...spend your money on the stuff that you can't grow and grow the things you can...if you are like me, in the end you will value the stuff you've grown much more than what you have purchased...
Do whatever you want, it's good to have all kinds, but realize that most of us wish we had starting growing material well before we ever got started.
erb.75
Chumono
I definitely agree that there is some stuff you just can't find....like root over rock stock...people just don't carry it. especially ROR stock that looks really appealing to me
I'd be curious as well. I have one that I got from Brent a couple of years ago. Not show ready of course, but working on developing the primary and secondary branches now. Maybe there is someone that has been working on one of his Seijus for a lot longer that can share.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
I bet it's far lower. I have taken easily 400 cuttings and seedlings in 20+ years, and may have 2 decent bonsai on my benches to show for the effort...out of a collection that was 115 potted trees this spring.
You could take it a step further and make the case that even 1% of actual bonsai will turn into decent bonsai! How may do you consider and pass on when looking to buy?
Growing stock well is very challenging. Aside from some Itoigawa, I've decided to leave this largely to others!
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Sorry guys but that is just another load of crap.... as I look around my collection this morning at least 50% of my trees have been grown from cuttings or seedlings. Almost all of the junipers, trident, and J. Maple I have have been grown from cuttings, seedlings or air layers. My buddy has over 1000 trees and easily 90% of those he has grown on his own!
Here is an example for you....around 2009 I bought 50 trident seedlings from Matt O. I killed 35 almost immediately. I grew the remainder in the ground for several years...using tiles, digging every other year chopping roots and tops. Today I have 7 left...sold or given away the others, and of the remaining, maybe 3-4 will make decent trees...2 are total garbage. I started with 50 but only really developed 15 and have potentially 3-4 trees I may keep in my collection...only 20% but that is well above the 1 or less than 1% some are claiming. I learned a lot in the process and now have 100 more going in their second year...5 years from now I would bet the % to be even higher as I adjust for my previous mistakes.
It certainly takes time and numbers are essential to the process just as they are in every other aspect of the process but growing your own is very doable. When you are buying "quality material" is it all good?...do just say give me one of those? Or, do you pick through the 100 sharpies Pygmy maples( insert whatever species you want here) that Brussels is selling to carefully select the one or two that appeal to you? How and why should growing your own be any different?
If you think you can just plop a couple seedlings or take a couple cuttings and magically in a couple years you will have a wonderful tree you are mistaken. However, it is very possible and relatively easy to grow your own material with enough time and effort.
It may not be everyone's choice to do so, and that is a good thing, but it is more than possible if you are interested or find the need to do so because of the lack of quality material available.
Here is an example for you....around 2009 I bought 50 trident seedlings from Matt O. I killed 35 almost immediately. I grew the remainder in the ground for several years...using tiles, digging every other year chopping roots and tops. Today I have 7 left...sold or given away the others, and of the remaining, maybe 3-4 will make decent trees...2 are total garbage. I started with 50 but only really developed 15 and have potentially 3-4 trees I may keep in my collection...only 20% but that is well above the 1 or less than 1% some are claiming. I learned a lot in the process and now have 100 more going in their second year...5 years from now I would bet the % to be even higher as I adjust for my previous mistakes.
It certainly takes time and numbers are essential to the process just as they are in every other aspect of the process but growing your own is very doable. When you are buying "quality material" is it all good?...do just say give me one of those? Or, do you pick through the 100 sharpies Pygmy maples( insert whatever species you want here) that Brussels is selling to carefully select the one or two that appeal to you? How and why should growing your own be any different?
If you think you can just plop a couple seedlings or take a couple cuttings and magically in a couple years you will have a wonderful tree you are mistaken. However, it is very possible and relatively easy to grow your own material with enough time and effort.
It may not be everyone's choice to do so, and that is a good thing, but it is more than possible if you are interested or find the need to do so because of the lack of quality material available.
I think it's fairly easy to grow seedlings into small trees. Whether they will ultimately come out with characteristics that make good bonsai is a completely different story. For the vast majority of bonsai, it's the few inches off the base that really make for a good, interesting tree. The only exception I would make is for collected species, where the age and character will overcome the lack of your typical good spreading base.
I say this while I am growing out plenty of seedlings and small cuttings - tridents, JMs, JBPs, stewartia, crab apples, zelkovas, chinese quince, japanese quince, etc. A bunch I've put in the ground, some I'm growing out in containers. There are a few that are coming out nicely, though I won't know for sure until I dig them up and see what the nebari looks like. I bunch I've dug up and sold because they weren't much to write home about. A select few others seem to have the bones for a good tree.
That being said, I have fun growing out the small stock. I like trying out new techniques, learning the particularities of various species before spending money on a specimen tree, etc. It's fun, and for more ornamental trees like japanese quince, maybe I can come up with nice little shohin. Otherwise, I'm under no illusion that most will end up with a permanent home on my benches.
I say this while I am growing out plenty of seedlings and small cuttings - tridents, JMs, JBPs, stewartia, crab apples, zelkovas, chinese quince, japanese quince, etc. A bunch I've put in the ground, some I'm growing out in containers. There are a few that are coming out nicely, though I won't know for sure until I dig them up and see what the nebari looks like. I bunch I've dug up and sold because they weren't much to write home about. A select few others seem to have the bones for a good tree.
That being said, I have fun growing out the small stock. I like trying out new techniques, learning the particularities of various species before spending money on a specimen tree, etc. It's fun, and for more ornamental trees like japanese quince, maybe I can come up with nice little shohin. Otherwise, I'm under no illusion that most will end up with a permanent home on my benches.
JoeR
Masterpiece
I think the time it takes to grow good stock is what causes so many people to just pay $$$ for other peoples investment of time instead of doing it themselves.
What they do not realise is that the time is going to pass by anyway, whether you plant long term projects or not.
Like I told my mother when she asked why would plant pine seeds when it will take 20 years to become good bonsai: those 20 years are going to pass by if I plant seeds or not, and 20 years from now I might have top notch bonsai that I could sell for $$$ to the people who dont want to do it themselves. Or I fail and try again, but at least I can say I tried and learned something.
That whole 'you reap what you sow' phrase really comes into play here, literally.
The exception here is the people who dont have 20 years.
The time is going to pass by anyway. Plant seeds, take cuttings, start layers now. Yes it will take years but what have we to lose? What do we have to gain?
What they do not realise is that the time is going to pass by anyway, whether you plant long term projects or not.
Like I told my mother when she asked why would plant pine seeds when it will take 20 years to become good bonsai: those 20 years are going to pass by if I plant seeds or not, and 20 years from now I might have top notch bonsai that I could sell for $$$ to the people who dont want to do it themselves. Or I fail and try again, but at least I can say I tried and learned something.
That whole 'you reap what you sow' phrase really comes into play here, literally.
The exception here is the people who dont have 20 years.
The time is going to pass by anyway. Plant seeds, take cuttings, start layers now. Yes it will take years but what have we to lose? What do we have to gain?
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Yes. But...here is the thing. You don't just plant seeds or cuttings or young plants and leave them alone for 10 or 20 years (I was being flippant with my earlier comments...if only it was that easy!) While those plants are in the ground you have to keep an eye on them - they may need wiring, trimming, pesticide application, and they will occasionally need to be dug and root pruned, etc. The time adds up.
As people progress through bonsai, they tend to acquire better trees (either by purchasing better trees or developing their own). Working on those trees takes time as well, perhaps more time as they improve. When spring repotting crunch time comes and you have too many trees in pots and the ground, you may start putting off digging those ground trees...I can wait until next year. Well, a tree can get away pretty quickly in the ground and you can wind up with a mess to deal with.
Anyway, I'm sure people realize all this...if you have the time to make it all work, go for it. It's fun to try and grow your own stock from a young plant.
One piece of advice I want to offer for your tree, something that John didn't mention...generally it is a good idea to work on the roots before you plant it in the ground. You want to get the plant started with a good radial, flat root system...possibly planted on a tile or board. If you just stick it in the ground the way it is, there's a good chance the main roots will continue straight down and you'll have to do a ground layer later on to re-develop nice roots. At least, that's what I've found with my first group of ground stock.
JoeR
Masterpiece
I know that would consist of raking out the top layer of roots and choping most of the roots off the bottom to go on a tile, but I doubt that I could do that at this time of year without jeopardizing the health of the tree. It has little to no large roots and mostly just feeder roots so the nebari is non existent.
Building a slightly raised grow bed today or tomorrow using some cinderblocks.
JoeR
Masterpiece
That goes with the what do we have to lose/ what do we have to gain aspect.
Some things we have to lose....
For example... Some of our time possibly being wasted or not going toward more important things. Failing.
Some things we have to gain....
The fruit of our efforts, being able to say 'I did this', something to be proud of. Something to show for all our work. Being able to sell it to someone else.
It may be worth it to some, and it may not be worth it to others. For me it is, for you maybe not.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Pretty high opinion of your "own" material. Why buy the seedlings from Matt. If you want to control the process from start to finish then start from seed. There is a difference. If you are starting with 50 tridents and end up with 3-4 "good ones" you are not "developing" tridents. There is absolutely no way to ruin a trident from a seedling if you have the chops.
If one has the expertise, and I mean developing good show worthy trees from nursery stock and knows how to develop it, you don't need hundreds to get more than 3-4 "good ones". The problem is that when one wants to grow their own material they can only apply the technique to the material that they can do at the time. By the time the material gets to the point that one want to dig it up and really start working on it, the material only contains the attributes that you know how to do. You have gained nothing. Now all one can say is that this crappy tree is mine start to finish. Yea I made that bulky base that will not fit into the appropriate pot, yeah I made that first branch too high or too low, yeah I made that slingshot trunk. Yeah it has reverse taper but it will go away with some sacrifice branches. Why not just throw it away? I made it....it is good.
Growing material is a job. It needs the same attitude thron at it as any other profession does. If one is just working for a paycheck on Friday then the trees will reflect that. Want to start your work at 10AM instead of 6AM or working till dark like an apprentice does in Japan, or would you rather come in at 2 PM and watch Family Feud? Some Chineese growing fields.
Growing material is not just put it into the ground for a few years and dig up superior stock. If you couldn't make a tree out of it before you planted it, your not going to be able to make a tree out of it when you dig it up. You will have a larger mess with even more shortcomings to deal with. When I go out to Ed Clarks nursery with literally tens of thousands of juniper and pine trees to choose from, I still look thru hundreds to get "the one" that I want to work on. I choose this "One" because of trunk to height ratio, branch structure or buds to produce them, trunk taper, movement etc, etc. Someone above my ability might find nothing here, someone below my ability would buy everyone they pick up. None of it is my work so I see no roses at all when I plunk down the cash.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Favorite photo of the day:
erb.75
Chumono
growing stock is just plain hard work. That's why people do it for a living. And that's why I keep buying material at various stages. Bonsai is most fun for me when I'm looking at awesome trees, working on my trees, watering while looking at my trees, or working on pre bonsai stock. I am growing some stock just for fun, but none of my trees are from cuttings, and maybe never will be. It's fun to go to a bonsai nursery like the Meehan's place and look at thousands of bonsai and find one that is like "wow, that's so weird! Look what mother nature/Martha randomly did with this plant!"
Working on 1000 cuttings is hard work and a lot of work if you ask me! Like smoke said, it's more than just putting it in the ground. For my part, there's a lot of other stuff I want to spend my time doing in bonsai, and growing seedlings isn't a big part of that. Just a personal preference though.
Working on 1000 cuttings is hard work and a lot of work if you ask me! Like smoke said, it's more than just putting it in the ground. For my part, there's a lot of other stuff I want to spend my time doing in bonsai, and growing seedlings isn't a big part of that. Just a personal preference though.
JoeR
Masterpiece
What is the necessity in making posts like this?
Yes. I bought crappy material for a few bucks. What's new.
I dont understand what the goal was in pointing this out.
Glad you have only bought perfect material though.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Mostly because you said this with a straight face, I'm calling this Favorite Quote of the day
With this tree I see two possible options:
1) Put in the ground and trunk chop after year 3 or so, depending.
2) Create a naturalistic literati style tree by a big cutback and some bending.
Of everything you said recently, pay special attention to the last line because that is the essence of good bonsai. "Glad you have only bought perfect material though". You can tell the quality of the material by how long the thread lasts. Good trees last 4 to 5 hours tops, bad material and crappy trees will last for days.
erb.75
Chumono
JoeR,
Sometimes people on here post things and what they say can be offensive. Try to have thick skin for this forum! A lot of these guys that post "mean" comments on here can be harsh, but they also have a lot of really good advice and a lot of good trees. Take the positive, and consider the negative too. Don't be offended and leave the forum. There are people on here that will say nicer things than they will, but may not offer you harsh truths that would improve your bonsai enjoyment and skill. Other times people just have a different sense of humor, and you will either be offended or sit back and laugh at yourself.
They are railing you a little bit for what you purchased. Just do as Taylors says, and "shake it off"
(and learn why they hate your material so much)
Sometimes people on here post things and what they say can be offensive. Try to have thick skin for this forum! A lot of these guys that post "mean" comments on here can be harsh, but they also have a lot of really good advice and a lot of good trees. Take the positive, and consider the negative too. Don't be offended and leave the forum. There are people on here that will say nicer things than they will, but may not offer you harsh truths that would improve your bonsai enjoyment and skill. Other times people just have a different sense of humor, and you will either be offended or sit back and laugh at yourself.
They are railing you a little bit for what you purchased. Just do as Taylors says, and "shake it off"
(and learn why they hate your material so much)
JoeR
Masterpiece
Oh I understand why they hate it.JoeR,
Sometimes people on here post things and what they say can be offensive. Try to have thick skin for this forum! A lot of these guys that post "mean" comments on here can be harsh, but they also have a lot of really good advice and a lot of good trees. Take the positive, and consider the negative too. Don't be offended and leave the forum. There are people on here that will say nicer things than they will, but may not offer you harsh truths that would improve your bonsai enjoyment and skill. Other times people just have a different sense of humor, and you will either be offended or sit back and laugh at yourself.
They are railing you a little bit for what you purchased. Just do as Taylors says, and "shake it off"
The lack of taper.
The straightness.
The zigzag lumps that are all over the trunk.
The clump of foliage on top.
Whats to like, other than I can take cuttings from it!
Half the threads here are just bickering between people of differing opinions and experience levels. However I would never dare leaving this forum because It is my only current access to experienced individuals.
erb.75
Chumono
cool beans...you are farther than a lot of people. let me know how the cutting farming process goes!
