Pinching Vance Wood: the challenge

Vance Wood said:

Not meaning to fan any flames but I do not use the ignore list. You are never going to agree with every body and the real trolls will lose interest after a while. So what's left. Talk to yourself? You can have discussions with those who agree with you and you can have arguments with those who don't and maybe you can come to agreement with each other on something.

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Vance,

We're up to 121 posts in this thread and I'm Oh so grateful that I am not holding my breath waiting for your show&tell.

Crap; I was kind of hoping to see your head explode from holding your breath. I'll get to it when I get to it. In the meantime why don't you post something significant like a picture of one of your trees?

I am so confused. I thought pinching was the preferred way to do this. Is this just a Midwestern thing? Where did I even learn this? I understand using scissors like in post one. But for new growth that you don't want to keep I thought pinching was the proper way.
As shown in post by wireme.
I think threatening vance and daring him is not needed.
I love his videos and it does take time away from his real life. I think asking and thanking him is the better way to get a response. I would love to see a video and his trees are lovely. I think there are many techniques that achieve beautiful results when applied at the correct time to the proper foliage.
Brian has beautiful trees too and is from the Midwest originally- did you used to pinch out the foliage?
Is this just a new way of doing things?
For tight foliage like in wireme post how do you get the scissors in there without cutting the tips? Please help.

Vance Wood said:

Not meaning to fan any flames but I do not use the ignore list. You are never going to agree with every body and the real trolls will lose interest after a while. So what's left. Talk to yourself? You can have discussions with those who agree with you and you can have arguments with those who don't and maybe you can come to agreement with each other on something.

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You would actually be surprised to see how few people you have to put on ignore to have a great time here. Two or three does the trick.

amcoffeegirl said:

I am so confused. I thought pinching was the preferred way to do this. Is this just a Midwestern thing? Where did I even learn this? I understand using scissors like in post one. But for new growth that you don't want to keep I thought pinching was the proper way.
As shown in post by wireme.
I think threatening vance and daring him is not needed.
I love his videos and it does take time away from his real life. I think asking and thanking him is the better way to get a response. I would love to see a video and his trees are lovely. I think there are many techniques that achieve beautiful results when applied at the correct time to the proper foliage.
Brian has beautiful trees too and is from the Midwest originally- did you used to pinch out the foliage?
Is this just a new way of doing things?
For tight foliage like in wireme post how do you get the scissors in there without cutting the tips? Please help.

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Going back to Wireme's post number 41, if the foliage was too long, and needed to be shortened, the entire little tuft we see should be cut off. Probably about where his fingers are. So I can't tell you exactly, his fingers are in the way. Don't remove just a tip the way he did. You see that little stub he left? It won't grow. It will turn brown eventually.

The problem isn't too obvious if only a few tips are pinched here and there. It's when someone goes and starts pinching like that all over.

How much is too much? Hard to say. So, the best thing is not to pinch at all, then you won't be tempted to pinch too much!

Adair M said:

Going back to Wireme's post number 41, if the foliage was too long, and needed to be shortened, the entire little tuft we see should be cut off. Probably about where his fingers are. So I can't tell you exactly, his fingers are in the way. Don't remove just a tip the way he did. You see that little stub he left? It won't grow. It will turn brown eventually.

The problem isn't too obvious if only a few tips are pinched here and there. It's when someone goes and starts pinching like that all over.

How much is too much? Hard to say. So, the best thing is not to pinch at all, then you won't be tempted to pinch too much!

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Forgive my newb question: If we only remove whole tufts, how do we maintain a clean pad (I.e. All foliage is exactly at the ideal profile)? There are two cases I'm thinking of here...
1) Most of the foliage is at the ideal length and eventually outgrows the profile (Arbitrary number: 60%). Do you remove all 60% and have to grow that back from eventual back budding?
2) The foliage is all different lengths, where we have an arbitrary 50% at profile and 50% shorter (any longer than profile are removed). In my mind this causes a sort of jagged pad. How do you smooth it out?

As new as I am, I really have no stance on pinching; I'm asking only for clarification. Thanks!

A question I'm struggling with, as a Newby trying to soak up info. If the tip/shoot/twig/branch is removed by pinching or cutting, you are leaving a stub. Why will one method grow, and not the other? Aren't there a plethora of tips? Won't another take over and become the new leader?

That is where I'm confused... If the tip is cut, be it at the profile line, or further back, its still gone. I see removing it further back if thinning is the goal. But if we are just tidying things up, I would be inclined to pinch/prune/cut to the desired profile line. Can anybody clarify for me/us?

Another thing that bothers me is the need for this call out, or any call out. What makes a persons method wrong, and another correct? Don't get me wrong, I look forward to seeing different techniques, just wish it didn't seem like a witch hunt. For a newer member here, it seems kinda childish, guess I don't know everyones history.

But aren't we still talking browning ends?

PierreR said:

What makes a persons method wrong, and another correct?

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If it works, the method is right, I would say. Proof is in the pudding, which is why people are asking Vance to show what he is doing and the result he is getting.

Smoke said:

I have never seen one at a show in California for 32 years. I know I don't go to them all nor do I get to San Diego area much, but still I know of no fine examples.

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I used to show this Mugo Smoke...up until I sold it! Second pic shows it being packed up to go to Canada!

I saw one at [in a photo gallery] the Midori show a year or two ago. There are a few decent ones in No Cal, but I only see crappy ones down in So Cal. Kind of like larch for us.

Adair M said:

Going back to Wireme's post number 41, if the foliage was too long, and needed to be shortened, the entire little tuft we see should be cut off. Probably about where his fingers are. So I can't tell you exactly, his fingers are in the way. Don't remove just a tip the way he did. You see that little stub he left? It won't grow. It will turn brown eventually.

The problem isn't too obvious if only a few tips are pinched here and there. It's when someone goes and starts pinching like that all over.

How much is too much? Hard to say. So, the best thing is not to pinch at all, then you won't be tempted to pinch too much!

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So what I'm hearing is that I can never shorten a tuft? I must cut the entire thing off?
I don't have facebook to look up that guy that you referred to.
What I'm also hearing is if done in moderation I can get away with pinching.

Amcoffee, correct. You do not "shorten". You "remove".

When you remove foliage, your scissors are cutting where the foliage is attached to the stem or branch. Usually about 3/4 inch under the outer profile of the foliage. Yes, this also has a thinning effect, which lets light in. The cut should be made in such a way that no stub remains.

Performed correctly, the cutting back method works so well there is no need to pinch.

PierreR said:

A question I'm struggling with, as a Newby trying to soak up info. If the tip/shoot/twig/branch is removed by pinching or cutting, you are leaving a stub. Why will one method grow, and not the other? Aren't there a plethora of tips? Won't another take over and become the new leader?

That is where I'm confused... If the tip is cut, be it at the profile line, or further back, its still gone. I see removing it further back if thinning is the goal. But if we are just tidying things up, I would be inclined to pinch/prune/cut to the desired profile line. Can anybody clarify for me/us?

Another thing that bothers me is the need for this call out, or any call out. What makes a persons method wrong, and another correct? Don't get me wrong, I look forward to seeing different techniques, just wish it didn't seem like a witch hunt. For a newer member here, it seems kinda childish, guess I don't know everyones history.

But aren't we still talking browning ends?

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You can find the answer to your question in post 1. Removing the runners balances the rest of the pad, the remaining growth is more even. There isn't a stub left, or if there is, it should have green growth, which will continue growing.

As for the call out, it is a challenge. There is a long history between Vance and me on this topic, which you can read in the links on the OP. Vance spends a lot of time arguing against this technique, but no time actually demonstrating what he does instead. You are welcome to not like it, just as I am welcome to explore the topic deeper. With a little effort, you may learn something as well. You're welcome.

How's the video coming Vance?

About as far along as your video? I know you know how to do one of these, If I show you mine you have to show me yours!

The technique you guys are supporting has only been around for less than a decade. The method I use;----I have used successfully for more than three decades. You make it sound like I am swimming up stream, and maybe invented a new thing you wish to abolish like the round Earth theory. As to the evidence???? I look at a lot of the trees that have adopted this method and I don't care for them. That's just my opinion. I don't care for Lima beans and you or someone else may try to convince me that I must eat Lima Beans. Ain't gunna happen.

This "Kings New Clothes" method you guys are selling leaves what I consider less than stellar results. In fact; there is one tree here on the net I could point out but, I don't have permission, nor would I embarrass the owner, that at one point was starting to come along with some beautiful foliage pads, it was looking like the beginnings of a masterpiece. Then----someone talked the owner into adopting this method of dealing with the new growth and now, the tree is about as interesting as a plate of worms.

PierreR said:

For a newer member here, it seems kinda childish, guess I don't know everyones history.

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Yep it is a little childish. But occasionally amusing and informative. As for the history as I understand it it's something like this. Brian Van Fleet (BVF) and Vance wood are both good at bonsai. Vance is an older guy from Michigan who can be moody at times. BVF can be really pompous and obnoxious so they argue from time to time.

Brian Van Fleet said:

You are welcome to not like it, just as I am welcome to explore the topic deeper. With a little effort, you may learn something as well. You're welcome.

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Above quote is classic BVF. He knows his stuff but says things that make you want to give him a wedgie.

I already showed you what I do; my process. Here, other threads, and my blog which has thousands of visits a month.

You're the one proclaiming your method is right, but seem to be unwilling to show us what you're doing: your process, before, during, and after. You offered up a video, not me. I've demonstrated what I do to the satisfaction of thousands.

It is your turn.

I'm thinking once Vance makes a video on his technique and people understand what Brian and Adair are trying to point out, the best way to get to nice tight foliage pads will and probably should be a combination of both techniques.
Which by the way is the way Vance works his. He uses the scizzors but in order to get the tight foliage he has he pinches to profile. So he actually does what what Brian and Adair are saying to do and then pinches to refine. One extra step is all.
His shimpaku are tight!

Brian Van Fleet said:

I already showed you what I do; my process. Here, other threads, and my blog which has thousands of visits a month.

You're the one proclaiming your method is right, but seem to be unwilling to show us what you're doing: your process, before, during, and after. You offered up a video, not me. I've demonstrated what I do to the satisfaction of thousands.

It is your turn.

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You did not show me S#!++, you posted a photo here and there and made all sorts of proclamations about how superior this technique is and then made it out that I didn't understand because I didn't want to understand. After looking at a photo of a tree in the garden from five feet away I was supposed to see what you are talking about. It seems to me that your method of dealing with people is to tell them: Go to my blog etc. and so on, like you are too good to post here in the same way you are challenging me to do. I know you know how to do a video because we discussed it one day. I don't really care if you have a million hits on your blog, that does not make you right and make me wrong. Post it here or go away and leave me be. You may wish you had, because above all things I have come to know; you are a prideful man.

Well Mike, if you read some of the earlier threads, that's kinda the point I've been trying to make for 3 years: I suspect he's hung up on terminology and his technique is not dissimilar enough to show a difference. Hence the stall.