THIS is why you shouldn't pinch junipers!

klosi

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You're Kishu looks amazing.
I would choose the second picture as the front. What bothers me on first pic is that it seems that the "trunk" (I know it's a root over rock) has reverse taper:

image.jpg

On the second image the rock is bothering me with the part marked out. It seems artificial and broken off. Somehow I don't like it.

image (1).jpg

This is just my opinion. I like it anyhow and I think this tree has a lot of potential, specially being in such good hands now. Good luck!
 

Adair M

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Klosi,

I'll take better pictures of the rock. It's pretty cool.
 

Gary S

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I think you are out of the woods on this Ito Shimpaku. I bought two imported Ito from Brussels around 10 years ago. They were in much better shape when I received them.

If it were my tree, I'd choose the first front. There is no reverse taper, visually. You have measure the distance at the base.

I'd then let it grow new shoots or runners and let it get healthy, let it grow.

Here's some runners on one of my young Shimpakus that are cuttings I take from the mother plant. These are Not Ito shimpaku but a variety I grow.

It's a slanting style. I haven't done much with this tree yet because I want it to grow faster.

shimpaku-ShootsSM01.jpg shimpaku-Shoots01.jpg
 

Adair M

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Here's an update on this tree. I just repotted it. The previous pottings had been as incompetent as the foliage management!

It badly needed a half bare root repot. Fully half the Rock was buried under the soil. Because it had been buried too deep, there is a bad crossing root that had been allowed to grow. It will eventually be removed.

Here's a couple of pictures:

image.jpeg



image.jpeg

There were a lot of old icky black dead roots in old, black, icky, slimy soil. This tree had been imported about 10 years ago, barerooted, by Brussel's. From all appearances, the soil in the interior of the rootball was still the same soil from when it was first potted at Brussel's. That soil will do ok for a couple years until the pine bark starts to decay, and then it goes bad. The best thing to do to any tree sourced from Brussel's is to get it into better soil.

The after:

image.jpeg
 

leatherback

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THe foliage looks a lot happier.. Amazing for such a short period of time.
 

Adair M

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The foliage is displaying winter color! It was covered in snow last Thursday!
 

Adair M

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:)
Was referring to the appearent reduction in needle foliage :D
It will probably take 3 years to completely get it back to all scale.

Meanwhile, I've identified a couple big branches to Jin. That's most easily accomplished in summer when the cambium is full of juice. So, I'll wait until then.
 

Adair M

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Here's a close up picture of some of the pinching damage still remaining on the tree:

image.jpeg

What were brown tips have now turned grey, nearly white. This being an Itoigawa, it's sent out juvenile foliage from behind to continue growing. Those "brown tips" never come back to life, the needles just stop growing. Yes, it did backbud behind the cut, but with juvenile foliage in a lot of places.

I could (and probably should) go in and remove the doomed foliage where the pinching (shearing) was done, and leave the new juvenile growth. But, I'll leave it on a bit longer to continue to document what happens to "pinched" growth.

At any rate, I have to leave the juvenile growth. There's the great temptation to cut it off! Don't! That will only further stress the tree.

In the past couple weeks since the repotting, the color is looking much better. It got a half bare root repot and it appears to be enjoying the better soil mix. It has greened up significantly, even without any fertilizer.
 

sorce

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But, I'll leave it on a bit longer to continue to document what happens to "pinched" growth.

That is SO Adair!

Nice...

It is looking very good on the comeback!

Sorce
 

Adair M

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That is SO Adair!

Nice...

It is looking very good on the comeback!

Sorce
No, that's SO Brian Van Fleet! He does a far better job of documenting this stuff than I do!

I just do it, and then when I'm done I think, oh shoot! I should have taken pictures!
 

carp

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You still have not provided sufficient evidence what I am doing is not good for my tree.
 

Adair M

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You still have not provided sufficient evidence what I am doing is not good for my tree.
Probably not since I have no clue what you're doing to your tree! Lol!!!

I know you're trolling.

I know some will never "get" it. Especially those who've been pinching forever. But maybe I can teach the newbies a better way. The newbies are the future of bonsai.
 

Vance Wood

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image.jpg You have me by about two weeks, I can't get to my trees yet. However let's talk about the Juniper you showed. This is kind of disengenuous I think. There is a lot more going on with this Juniper than a botched job of "pinching". How long ago was this Juniper pinched? Who pinched it? How and why did you get your hands on it? I don't have a problem with you trying to prove a point where in you think you are right, but to make it out that people like me are old farts that can't change is kind of an unkind thing to say, it's like being called a racist.

In all the years I have been doing these trees I have never had one turn out like this one, of course all of my Shimps are Kishus and maybe that makes a difference.

Maybe your point would be better made as: This is why you don't pinch Itowigawas?
 
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Adair M

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Vance, I'll recap the story, but my comment as not directed at you. There are many people who, when I tell them not to pinch junipers, respond with "But that's how I was taught!"

In fact, Bonsai Bark just published another article about it on their blog. In their blog, they state that some of the early information from the Japanese magazines was first translated from Japanese to Spanish. And then later, they were translated from Spanish to English. And who knows if either translator (Japanese to Spanish) or (Spanish to English) had any knowledge of bonsai culture? Probably neither did! So, not only is it possible, it's likely that a lot of the information we received 30 years ago was erroneous!

But back to this tree...

The picture I posted today is the same tree that is the subject of this entire thread. I bought it early last summer. A long time customer of Plant City was getting out of bonsai, and Steve bought his entire collection to resell at the shop. I saw this tree, and decided to buy it because it's rare to find an old Itoigawa Shimpaku on an Itoigawa Rock! The roots clasp the rock nicely, and the rock is a good one.

Upon closer inspection, I determined that the previous owner had been "maintaining" this juniper by shearing it back. Which is an extreme form of pinching.

This tree was originally imported by Brussel's about 10 years ago. Plant City bought it and resold it to the customer who owned it for a decade before he resold it back to Plant City.

When I reported it a couple weeks ago, I found three layers of old screen wire on the bottom. Which means every time it had beef repotted, nothing had been removed, it was just moved into a larger container, and new soil placed on the bottom and around the sides.

I did a HBR (Half Bare Root) repot, as depicted above a few posts, removing most of the old soil. The center was Brussel's pine bark soil which was slimy and held no live roots.

I also determined that the rock was buried too deep in the pot, only about 1/2 of the rock was visible as it had been buried. A lot of the clasping roots could not be seen, which I've fixed, by raising the rock up. Unfortunately, during those 10 years a circling root grew and had never been reduced. I've had to leave it on for now until the root system regenerates. In a year, I should be able to remove it.

So, getting back to the pinching, when I aquired it, it had been recently sheared, and I'm trying to restore it back yo health. Also, it appeared to have never been wired in those 10 years, so I wired it to open up the canopy to promote backbudding to get growth closer to the trunk.

Yes, a 100 % rehab!
 

Vance Wood

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I appreciate it that you have taken the time to write out the entire story for me. So the tree had been sheared. That answeres a lot of questions and the fact the tree had been neglected for God knows how many years its appearance is not so unanswered to me. However using this image as an example of improper pinching or pinching at all is a bit inaccurate, and is like calling a train wreck a fender bender. This tree has been a disaster on many levels and you have done a good job rehabbing it to the point you have done so far.
 

Adair M

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I appreciate it that you have taken the time to write out the entire story for me. So the tree had been sheared. That answeres a lot of questions and the fact the tree had been neglected for God knows how many years its appearance is not so unanswered to me. However using this image as an example of improper pinching or pinching at all is a bit inaccurate, and is like calling a train wreck a fender bender. This tree has been a disaster on many levels and you have done a good job rehabbing it to the point you have done so far.
Actually, Vance, you posted on this thread last summer when it was active. I think around page 5, you might find some of your posts.

Anyway, if someone had read thru the entire thread, my picture would make sense as it is a follow-up. At the time, the tips were brown. Now, they're silver. And the needles that had been pinched did not grow. The growth from behind them is beginning to cover them over. Soon, the old cut needles won't be exposed to the sun, they'll get shaded out.

It doesn't matter what kind of juniper it is, they all react pretty much the same way. This one, Itoigawa, goes juvenile, but others may stay scale. But the cut ends still stop growing.

This tree had been sheared. But some people do pretty much the same thing as shearing by pinching with their fingers everywhere. As I have said, it's not the tool that causes the problem. It's how it's used.
 

sorce

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@Vance Wood
@Adair M

I'm only messin with you, but seriously....

There is no prize for arguing semantics on the most threads!
We are up to at least 3!

Just don't get mean, while you old guys are figuring the differences of your means.....to the same
Non Brown, Non Silver, Fully Green Ends.

If one wants nice Juniper foilage...
Listen to Vance.
Or Listen to Adair.

Just don't listen to both of them....or you will be confused!

:p

I'm taking a dump....also considered pinching!

Sorce
 
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