Root Talk

So I've been chasing Caddi all over this morning about pots chock full of roots, because of the one she had draining slow.

I noticed an exceptional summer dormancy this year, after which, a cool period has apparently triggered a mass root growth cycle.

Everything drains slow.
Everything is OK.

Seems a good time to repot.
A month ago!

Also, I noticed that keeping this sifted oil dry Napa 8822 ONLY, wet always, produces roots that are quite like what one would expect from a constantly wet habitat. Lots of good feeders close to the trunk.

I'm totally with @Eric Group with the wetter is better push. Soil dependant of course. I haven't dried out at all. And Everything is fabulous!

A lil worrisome for winter. But only for the ones with organic.

Next year I go all sifted 8822 and nothing else.

Discuss rooted observations please!

Thanks

Sorce

I still believe, that 11 times out of 10, bonsai fatalities are root-related. All out of season work is risky to careless, and if you understand the growth cycles and function of plant parts, spring is the safest time to do root work.

Lol chasing me around eh? I didn't even hear any suspenseful music about...(looking to the left, right and over my shoulder)

You lost me on the 8822...I do have slightly organic mix. Because my trees all like water. And I don't wish to water twice daily. (Though some still get that treatment that aren't in my mix) I use Wee Tree brand. I have seen good results from even my bougainvillea twisted cascade that had a horrible start of root rot from being in some Sandy substrate it arrived from the seller in. But has recovered nicely in the Wee Tree brand soil.

Not bonsai...but, this experienced root rot when it ended up with a parasite while I was away for two weeks. Being watered as directed with no foliage in potting soil it suffered. Totally organic BGI Bougainvillea soil now. (I no longer use on my bougavinillea since it stained the base of my trunk) What I think is an impatien that I've had for 13 years now...ever since my son brought it home in a tiny styraphom cup.





But this is new root growth on my bougainvillea which "is" a bonsai that has roots in horrible shape at the time of repotting. (Slightly pushed back substrate for photo...and recovered them)

Brian Van Fleet said:

I still believe, that 11 times out of 10, bonsai fatalities are root-related. All out of season work is risky to careless, and if you understand the growth cycles and function of plant parts, spring is the safest time to do root work.

Click to expand...

I think that is a great general statement- "Spring is the safest time to do root work".
For the widest variety of climates and the widest variety of trees, this is definitely true! Especially for people new to Bonsai, those scared they will kill a tree, not sure what they are doing or how much to remove... Spring is certainly the best time. It provides the most forgivable conditions to accommodate a tree that is stressed and maybe had a little too much taken off the roots or wasn't provided good after care...

I do want to add that for people who have a good grasp of how much to remove and how to care for a tree after repotting- Fall is a great time to repot some trees as well though. It is far from "risky to careless" and can actually provide some advantages over waiting for Spring in certain cases and certain CLIMATES! If you live much farther North than me, I cannot speak to the dangers of a Fall repot, and for trees like a Pine or Juniper that seem to grow roots a little slower than something like a Maple I probably wouldn't recommend it either... Again, all reasons why it is probably not advisable for beginners especially....

So as a general rule- SPRING is certainly the best season!

I agree that soil doesn't have to dry out as much as many say. My trees all get watered everyday not only for moisture but also for gas exchange, I've never had root rot but that's because I use a very drain soil that I'll admit I have to water twice a day on the days over 100. As long as there's enough air flow in soil you can't over water a plant simple as that, I have a jade which is in straight pumice that gets gets watered everyday with everyone else, and I've never seen a succulent grow 10inches in 4 months.

sorce said:

So I've been chasing Caddi all over this morning about pots chock full of roots, because of the one she had draining slow.

I noticed an exceptional summer dormancy this year, after which, a cool period has apparently triggered a mass root growth cycle.

Everything drains slow.
Everything is OK.

Seems a good time to repot.
A month ago!

Also, I noticed that keeping this sifted oil dry Napa 8822 ONLY, wet always, produces roots that are quite like what one would expect from a constantly wet habitat. Lots of good feeders close to the trunk.

I'm totally with @Eric Group with the wetter is better push. Soil dependant of course. I haven't dried out at all. And Everything is fabulous!

A lil worrisome for winter. But only for the ones with organic.

Next year I go all sifted 8822 and nothing else.

Discuss rooted observations please!

Thanks

Sorce

Click to expand...

I have only been hammering on the soil "wetness" thing because I feel like so many people talk about "root rot" and the dangers of OVER watering... It leads to people who are new to the game being afraid to water their trees!! After doing this for about 15 years I can say I was one of those people for some time and I LOST Lord knows how many trees because they got too dry!
A wet tree is pretty much going to just be really happy and GROW MORE 90% of the time. Unless it is in stagnant, slow draining LIQUID MUD like soil, the chances are very slim that it is really going to cause a big problem, and if you have your tree potted in a free draining mix, it is very hard TO over water it to the point of causing health issues in my experience!

Root rot, again in my experience, is usually caused by roots dying from other stress- too much heat, not enough water, too much fertilizer, bugs... And the dead roots then rot in the soil once they are dead which leads to all sorts of nasty bacteria and stuff building up, which can harm the remaining roots.... The dead roots aren't soaking up water any more either, so the soil stays wet longer, breaking more of the natives that are feeding on the dead roots... and leading people to believe it was the wet soil that killed the roots... When it probably was not the case!

On the contrary- EVERY TREE that completely dries out is DEAD. 100% FATALITY RATES on dry soil. Perhaps some succulents or cacti might bounce back from bing completely dried out, but I have never met a tree that would.. If they get a little too dry, they wilt, you can soak them and bring them back... Probably going to be Ok. But bone dry soil= DEATH! Guaranteed! Just my little soap box... Since I started watering my trees MORE, the fatalities have all but ended (I keep over a hundred trees around so I still lose a few here or there, but not many!) and the healthy and vigor of my trees has increased dramatically.

Obviously I live in the South where it gets CRAZY HOT during the summer, so my trees might dry out quicker than people in different environments, so I won't say "you must water 3 times a day" or recommend any crazy schedules like that. I just want people to be aware that root rot from watering too often is one of the least common killers of trees in my experience. Errors made while repotting (doing it too often, removing too much, not providing proper after care... Repotting over the winter because a little bastard of a Squirrel knocked one of your favorites JMs off the bench and broke his pot while he was CHEWING A big section of bark off... Oh yeah, that will kill a damn tree, lemme tell ya! Do I sound bitter?) are the most common causes of death among trees IMO, just as Brian said above.

Another thing I've noticed. I only saw roots poke through the basket sides 2-3 times, and then shrivel.

I thought I would see them more.

I can not wait till spring to see what these pots have provided.

I'm trying to have an easy spring, I hope to leave some unrepotted, the ones that don't need work, to see what a year with full roots will do.
Full feeders too!

However, there are a few, like my Forsythia, that got unsifted 8822, and they are not happy.
I learned to not be lazy.

I think I will sift soil on a semi-industrial scale this winter, to save time and sanity come another odd spring!

Sorce

BVF. I'm glad that came first.

aml1014 said:

I agree that soil doesn't have to dry out as much as many say. My trees all get watered everyday not only for moisture but also for gas exchange, I've never had root rot but that's because I use a very drain soil that I'll admit I have to water twice a day on the days over 100. As long as there's enough air flow in soil you can't over water a plant simple as that, I have a jade which is in straight pumice that gets gets watered everyday with everyone else, and I've never seen a succulent grow 10inches in 4 months.

Click to expand...

You nailed it- GAS EXCHANGE! A buddy was telling me a story of someone who worked with one of the masters for a while... I think it was Kimura maybe? Anyway, they had a tree that was languishing, so he brought it into a greenhouse and kept it under misters for a while thinking that would help, Kimura (or whomever it was.. Sorry, it isn't MY story..) walks in one day to see him fawning over this dying tree and asked him what he was doing. The guy said what he had done, that he suspected the tree wasn't drying out enough and it had cause root rot and he was trying to limit the water getting on the soil, try some foliar watering... Or Something different... The master scoffed at him. He took the tree back outside, set it under the bench, watered the Hell out of it and told him to do that every day... After a week or two the tree was fine. He explained that it was the stagnant air in the soil not getting exchanged from a good, thorough, flushing watering that was causing the tree's health to decline. Roots need oxygen after all, and the quality and amount of oxygen they have access to is determined by how "open"/ porous your soil is but mostly by how often your flush the old stagnant, bacteria breeding air from the roots with a good watering... Flood the pot til water stands on top, wait a few minutes for it to drain through, then do it again- THAT ensures you completely flushed the a old air out and replaced it with fresh- very important! Great point!

Eric Group said:

Fall is a great time to repot some trees as well though. It is far from "risky to careless" and can actually provide some advantages over waiting for Spring in certain cases and certain CLIMATES!

Click to expand...

So much to say, @Eric Group
I did not say fall was out of season, though I don't advocate it.

Brian Van Fleet said:

So much to say, @Eric Group
I did not say fall was out of season, though I don't advocate it.

Click to expand...

Where I live it's almost better to repot heat tender species in fall because we have a somewhat mild winter which almost completely skips spring straight to summer and it's hot right away, so if you were to do a repot on certain species in spring they actually have a longer recovery time before they can actually be in the sun.

aml1014 said:

Where I live it's almost better to repot heat tender species in fall because we have a somewhat mild winter which almost completely skips spring straight to summer and it's hot right away, so if you were to do a repot on certain species in spring they actually have a longer recovery time before they can actually be in the sun.

Click to expand...

I have found the same thing to be true... And, if you repot in the Fall- certain species like Maples for instance- they seem to grow a bunch of roots back over the Fall and early/ late part of the winter so they are ready to roll as soon as Spring breaks and they grow like crazy! Maybe not the best thing for an old, established Bonsai, but for prebonsai and stock you want to grow out, it is helpful!

Spring only here except for the mugos.

When I put something in the ground to grow out, fall works well in my location.
Would not mess with anything that would go back into a container, too cold here, and I ain't gettin' no heating pad.

M. Frary said:

Spring only here except for the mugos.

Click to expand...

That is the only time of year the dirt ain't frozen, right?

Eric Group said:

That is the only time of year the dirt ain't frozen, right?

Click to expand...

Pretty close. I just don't have a long enough autumn to be comfortable doing rootwork then. When winter arrives here it comes in fast and furious. We're almost into October here. It will start freezing here in a few weeks. The poor kids around here go trick or treating in winter coats and snowmobile suits a lot of times.

seriously, i love my climate. i repot and defoliate in december.
but, this year may be colder than average i'm hearing, so i'll probably stop in november if i have to.
totally safe again in early march.

Brian Van Fleet said:

I still believe, that 11 times out of 10, bonsai fatalities are root-related. All out of season work is risky to careless, and if you understand the growth cycles and function of plant parts, spring is the safest time to do root work.

Click to expand...

8 days a week..

I am at a loss, in a very good way. At 24 Lat. I guess I can pretty much do it all at any time except when it is 95F.. Although oddly enough my last general re pot was in March. Canadian holdover thinking, I guess.

@Owen Reich

I posted some of these root pics today, of Ulmus, growing mad roots in freezing overnight temps, and day time sweater weather....

Then....I also noticed them on my indoor ficus.


So I thought of the moon, googled it, and low and behold...


Interesting enough to start conversation about it.

Root talk folks..para lunas..lets have some!

Sorce

So it was 31 degrees, that's one under freezing in C, when I checked this morning, and I think it hit 28 overnight, it's been cold, And these trees are golden, as in not green!

More roots!


Even my forsythia, which has been hurting this year, is pushing roots.


I didn't think it was a root 2 days ago, but it grew!

Its technically freezing. Frost today even!
And I've had everything well dormant by now in years passed.

I would have been fully confident in repotting these in October if I had to....
Which I should have on some Unsifted ones!

To no F ups next year!

Sorce