Backbudding Scots Pine.....bud question

My pore old mistreated Sylvestris is coming around now that it is in good soil and had good fertilizer last summer.

NOW.... I have a question about removing buds to force backbuds.
Should I nip off the OLD buds that have all the strength and should pull nutrients to hope that the tiny backbuds get the juice?
Or let ALL the buds stay on and draw nutrients to the end of the limb?

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Mike, don't take anything off until next fall at the soonest. I can't tell from the pictures about the entire tree but the tree needs GREEN and yours has needlecast so you'll probably loose a few more needles.

Agree with desperate need for GREEN.
It was mired in bad akadama for too long. Repotted into pumice, lava, bark mulch and charcoal last year.
Improved quickly but still was not getting enough fert.
Which I changed .....but not soon enough.
THIS year no repot and lots of fert.
and SUN

What do you mean with GREEN?

Isn't it always better to stop/cut the laggy buds? (most distant from the thunk), and keep the one's closer to the thunk? If a branch has multiple buds why can't you just cut the tips?

Cypress187 said:

Isn't it always better to stop/cut the laggy buds? (most distant from the thunk), and keep the one's closer to the thunk?

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It is what I understood, and therefor, do.
ButI kill pines. 4 in a row.

Not per se related.

Now 3 have survived over a year with me.

Mike Corazzi said:

bad akadama

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Why,I didn't know there was such a thing. I thought that stuff was golden.

Garywood is right.
We can cut not only terminal bud, but all the branch up to the strong secondary branch... But only in case there will remain enough GREEN = needles on the branch. If not enough GREEN, the branch might die.
In case of this pine, it's needed to wait till backbuds are developed into branches to cut the rest.

If you want backbudding on a Scots pine wait until this year's candles extend and open up into shoots. Cut back to last year's growth before they harden.
Like Gary suggested I would let it grow and get healthy from its kakadama experience before doing this.

Mike Corazzi said:

My pore old mistreated Sylvestris is coming around now that it is in good soil and had good fertilizer last summer.

NOW.... I have a question about removing buds to force backbuds.
Should I nip off the OLD buds that have all the strength and should pull nutrients to hope that the tiny backbuds get the juice?
Or let ALL the buds stay on and draw nutrients to the end of the limb?

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Mike,

It's too soon to cut back to the new buds. It's great that you have all those backbuds, but they might not develop if the tree perceives that the limb is "weak". Wait until they have grown enough to where they are strong enough to nourish the branch, and then cut the terminal ends off.

Don't rush it. Pines react well to the proper techniques applied appropriately at the right time. They react poorly to ill timed processes, or being pushed too hard when they are weak.

From the pictures, your tree looks weak. Pines need to have healthy green needles to thrive. Your tree is sparce on needles, and there appears to be significant needle cast.

From the sounds of things, it's in the road to better health, just not there yet. Give it time. Treat the tree for needle cast. Don't cut ANYTHING on this tree until you get it healthy and strong.

My experience in my climate, when it grows strong in the middle of the growing season, cut the new candles to 2 to 3 needle pairs.

About 50% of the time, I get what I want backbudding-wise.

Harunobu said:

candles

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Never candles. Cut the shoots.
When in candle stage it's too early. Wait until the candle opens up into the shoot.

As a few have said- for pretty much any type of tree- if it has struggled so mightily so recently, let the sucker grow for a while! Health should be the primary concern. If it is not healthy, it won't backbud well no matter how/when/where you prune it.

See how it grows first, then show pics of the whole tree and ask these kind folks if they think it is ready for pruning.

Might be a good time to dose it up with some Copper...

Candles are shoots, shoots are candles. You cut them in the middle of the growing season, not in spring when they are elongating and not too late so backbuds you do get can't get enough time to grow.

Let the tree use the strong apical growth to gain strength. It will pull the backbudding to develop and growing. A weak scots pine will not backbud. Cutting back to not growing buds will set your tree back for 2 years. The first year after recuperating it is best to cut only the longer extensions (say 10% of the tree) leaving 6 or so needle pairs. It will balance the strength of the tree. Once the tree is strong overall (and starting at the same power in all places) in a few seasons you can do this to a higher percentage. When you want backbudding wait longer to cut. Let it extend, accumulate energy, then cut back (here end june till august). The longer you wait the more effect, but with scots pine you will have the effect in the next season.

Adair M said:

Mike,

It's too soon to cut back to the new buds. It's great that you have all those backbuds, but they might not develop if the tree perceives that the limb is "weak". Wait until they have grown enough to where they are strong enough to nourish the branch, and then cut the terminal ends off.

Don't rush it. Pines react well to the proper techniques applied appropriately at the right time. They react poorly to ill timed processes, or being pushed too hard when they are weak.

From the pictures, your tree looks weak. Pines need to have healthy green needles to thrive. Your tree is sparce on needles, and there appears to be significant needle cast.

From the sounds of things, it's in the road to better health, just not there yet. Give it time. Treat the tree for needle cast. Don't cut ANYTHING on this tree until you get it healthy and strong.

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Boy, that sums it up about perfectly.
This tree has had EVERYTHING done wrong. From the first purchase to contorting the trunk because it had NO character to GIVING IT AWAY to people who tossed it in their yard and let it fall over and make all them twisty roots to gettin it back and then PIECEMEAL trying to admister good advice with poor understanding.

This guy has gone through the hell of BAD akadama that made itself into a bog.
Also, I "tried" pulling down-facing needles.... WHEN IT DIDN'T HAVE MANY....
to FINALLY hosing out MOST of that hell conceived Japanese murder clay and repotting TWICE last summer to first, get it out of akaclammy and then to get it INTO lava, pumice, charcoal and applying some Vance treatment. and then FINDING OUT that SUN is good for it and then puttin it IN full sun and ....THEN..... hearing that a lot of frequent fertilizer is ALSO good.
So, the pore critter has had a dose of almost EVERY wrong thing.
BUT..... in proper soil since last early fall (even though clipped back on a few limbs mistakenly RUSHING it) I think (HOPE) that maybe this year if I leave it alone, the MULTIPLE back buds (magically created against all odds) may actually come out GREEN!

Hallelujah!

Now to see if it develops some GREEN SHOOTS like the economy hasn't.


But here are some pix.
As you can see, there is a fairly good smattering of needles that have defied the odds and stayed green (note rear ones)
The other pic shows a closeup of both browny and green needles.

While I'm happy our drought is ending, I think this tree would like to see SOME sun again.
It's been about a month or more of constant gloom.





(hmmm.... if I ...air layered... it and then ..... GRAFTED it to dandelion stock....and then........

Aaaghhhh!

M. Frary said:

Why,I didn't know there was such a thing. I thought that stuff was golden.

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It is amazing what you learn when those who have been selling something (Philosophically) all of a sudden start to tell the truth. I makes me realize and believe that there is hope for our little hobby obession.

Vance and Mike, and Mike,

akadama is great stuff. It does break down. It is up to the caretaker to keep an eye on it and replace it when needed. Much like you have to monitor wire, and remove it when it starts to cut in.

Is akadama NECESSARY? Of course not. If it is not available, or too expensive, substitute something else. In the pumice, lava, akadama mix, akadama's function is to retain water. If you use a 50/50 mix of lava/pumice, neither of those will break down, so then if the soil stops draining, it's likely full of roots. Just know that such a mix will most likely require watering more often since neither lava nor pumice "hold" water. If you can't water more often, then putting a layer of New Zealand spaghnum moss on top of the soil ( not mixed in ) will retain water.

The primary reason for the all inorganic mix is to prevent root rot. Peat moss, pine/fir bark etc can often hold too much water at the bottom of the pot. And yet the top looks dry, so the tree gets watered when it really didn't need it. This sets up the root rot.

Akadama holds some water, but not as much as the organic material. And while it does break down into smaller particles, being inorganic, it doesn't rot. Yes, if left too long, akadama can break down to be almost a solid block of clay. I've seen it. But only when the mix is 100 percent akadama. Most of us don't do that, it's only a third of the mix.

Akadama is a tool. A tool for keeping trees alive in pots. Like most tools, when used properly, you get great results. When misused or neglected, you get poor results. Like fertilizer. Used appropriately, the tree is kept healthy, and grows well. Put on too much, it can scorch the leaves, and even kill the tree.

This is what i would do after seeing the picture of the full tree. It has enough green, it is a relative young tree and is in a better medium right now. I would water and fertilize a lot next growing season. Normally it should explode with growth and more backbudding, if not add a year. In next late fall / early winter remove old needles leaving equal portions everywhere (for example 12 pairs facing upwards) of new needles. Do not remove the needles next to the new buds. Style it and remove unnecessary branches. It will look bare. Late summer after that you can start reducing the extensions to get it more compact. You only cut back to shoots that are actively growing. The more you cut back, the more backbudding you will have, BUT you need a strong shoot to pull!!! Aim for doubling needle length next year. Oh and treat for needle cast. When healthy it will go away on its own, but might need some help.

The backbudding you got now from the tree is a "thank you" for the better growing medium, use the first years of the thankfull tree to thank him. Give it all the sun, water, fertilizer you can find.

dirk hoorelbeke said:

This is what i would do after seeing the picture of the full tree. It has enough green, it is a relative young tree and is in a better medium right now. I would water and fertilize a lot next growing season. Normally it should explode with growth and more backbudding, if not add a year. In next late fall / early winter remove old needles leaving equal portions everywhere (for example 12 pairs facing upwards) of new needles. Do not remove the needles next to the new buds. Style it and remove unnecessary branches. It will look bare. Late summer after that you can start reducing the extensions to get it more compact. You only cut back to shoots that are actively growing. The more you cut back, the more backbudding you will have, BUT you need a strong shoot to pull!!! Aim for doubling needle length next year. Oh and treat for needle cast. When healthy it will go away on its own, but might need some help.

The backbudding you got now from the tree is a "thank you" for the better growing medium, use the first years of the thankfull tree to thank him. Give it all the sun, water, fertilizer you can find.

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Adair: Thanks for your above post. This has not always been the response from the supporters of Akadama who not too long ago would accuse people of not doing bonsai if they did not use 100% Akadama. It's just like anything else in a diet; too much of one thing is not always too good for you.

As to this Scots Pine: It is so difficult to give advise on a tree like this just from the description as described by the OP. You advise this and you advise that and the tree still goes South then the OP comes back and criticizes you for the advise. Even a picture here and there is better but not a cure all. The only thing that would be of some assurance is holding the tree, and touching the tree, and smelling the tree, and feeling the weight of the tree, and pulling the tree out of the pot and checking the condition of the roots,and the condition of the soil, and the smell of the soil, and the moisture content, and the structure of the soil, and, the appearance of the needles, and the number of the needles, and how many buds does it have, and are they epicormic, primary, or latent, or are they infected, is the tree suffering from needle cast or some condition caused from one of the above problems. I can keep going if you like. The point is no one can give you a magic bullet for bonsai.

Vance Wood said:

Adair: Thanks for your above post. This has not always been the response from the supporters of Akadama who not too long ago would accuse people of not doing bonsai if they did not use 100% Akadama. It's just like anything else in a diet; too much of one thing is not always too good for you.

As to this Scots Pine: It is so difficult to give advise on a tree like this just from the description as described by the OP. You advise this and you advise that and the tree still goes South then the OP comes back and criticizes you for the advise. Even a picture here and there is better but not a cure all. The only thing that would be of some assurance is holding the tree, and touching the tree, and smelling the tree, and feeling the weight of the tree, and pulling the tree out of the pot and checking the condition of the roots,and the condition of the soil, and the smell of the soil, and the moisture content, and the structure of the soil, and, the appearance of the needles, and the number of the needles, and how many buds does it have, and are they epicormic, primary, or latent, or are they infected, is the tree suffering from needle cast or some condition caused from one of the above problems. I can keep going if you like. The point is no one can give you a magic bullet for bonsai.

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I agree with you, Vance. It's hard to evaluate the health of a tree on the Internet.

Hey, tomorrow I'm headed over to California to participate in Boon's show. I'm taking a couple shohin with me. This year, the show features smaller trees only.