Azalea chop advice

Adair M said:

Why does it die back?

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It often starts because of desiccation, but eventually the loss of auxin transport signals death above and cambium dies down to a branch union or bud that provides auxin. The one thing helpful about 'cut paste' is preventing desiccation of the cambium until it forms a callus which will happen well within two weeks time.

Adair M said:

Is there some chemical released by the damaged cells?

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Yes.

Adair M said:

Are bacteria and or virus and or fungus able to attack because of the opening the damaged cells make?

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The chemical message to nearby cells is to clog/seal the xylem - compartmentalize the damage! - so pathogens have a harder time getting in. Of course, sanitizing your cutting tool before every cut would be a good idea.

Owen Reich said:

Just checked up on old posts and saw this. While I appreciate Adair's invocation of my name in the argument, there is a time an place for certain techniques. I apply cut paste quickly to some thin back species like azaleas to open cuts from drying out too much. Not every cut needs cuts paste and not all in under a minute.

I use the grey cut paste on large cuts and the liquid beige stuff on some species. The argument has been made many times for and against cut paste. As a horticulturist, certified arborist, and bonsaier my conclusion is it makes me feel better doing it so I keep doing it. I've also done some informal experiments on different species making cuts on the same tree or different trees at the same time. Cut pasted wounds with the grey putty vs no paste almost always healed more cleanly in favor of the pasted ones.

Attached is a photo of the aftermath of a cut on a big side branch in February 2015. Wound was carved smooth then outer edge smoothed in two passes: ( then ) with a grafting knife for uniform callus formation. Pic is from July 2015. Paste is pushed off as callus seals pretty much every time.

I do not think cut paste insulates from fungi, bacteria, or viruses. I feel that it benefits the plant in the short term for prompting healing but this is just my opinion. Some brands dry into a thick plastic that tears off bark and others get sucked under callus tissue which I don't like dealing with.

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Owen, thanks for posting! I didn't mean to "put words in your mouth", I do remember you telling someone to apply cut paste "immediately" after making the cut.

The "under 30 seconds" came from Rick Garcia, a Satsuki specialist. He was the one who taught me the TopJin followed by grey putty technique. Since I started doing it, I haven't had any dieback on my azaleas. Maybe it's just a coincidence. Maybe not.

I only do this on azalea, by the way.

0soyoung said:

It often starts because of desiccation, but eventually the loss of auxin transport signals death above and cambium dies down to a branch union or bud that provides auxin. The one thing helpful about 'cut paste' is preventing desiccation of the cambium until it forms a callus which will happen well within two weeks time.

Yes.

The chemical message to nearby cells is to clog/seal the xylem - compartmentalize the damage! - so pathogens have a harder time getting in. Of course, sanitizing your cutting tool before every cut would be a good idea.

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Thanks, Osoyoung, I knew this would be right up your alley!

Adair M said:

Trees don't heal? News to me! Maybe it's your definition of "heal". Wounds will callous over and cover exposed heartwood. Not all species do. Some more than others. Different trees react differently to wounds.

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Yes, they don't regenerate damaged tissue.

I am not a botanist so I can't argue the biological processes with you. But I do have 40 years of messing around with bonsai trees as a basis for my statements. Owen, I believe, does have a degree in horticulture, as well as training in Japan on bonsai.

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All the more reason to be sure you are right about what you say.

I do not know exactly how the "dieback" process works when you cut an azalea branch. Scientifically, that is. If you don't put cut paste on, the damaged cells die. Then the ones touching them. Then the ones touching those... And so it goes. How far back? Hard to say. Why does it die back? Is there some chemical released by the damaged cells? Are bacteria and or virus and or fungus able to attack because of the opening the damaged cells make? I really don't know. But I do know that sealing immediately can prevent dieback from starting.

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The damaged cells die either way.

How do you know it prevents dieback?

The "under 30 seconds" came from Rick Garcia, a Satsuki specialist. He was the one who taught me the TopJin followed by grey putty technique.

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So why 30 seconds? What happens? And how do you know? You believe his claims about magical 30 seconds just because he is a good artist?

Since I started doing it, I haven't had any dieback on my azaleas. Maybe it's just a coincidence. Maybe not.

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Yes, this means nothing.

Causation is not correlation. You need to have a control. You could as well throw salt over your left shoulder and say you don't have dieback because of that.
A plant will have dieback when it decides it has to compartmentalize out all the cambium that branch depends on. It will desiccate because of the cambium tissue being walled out, stopping the sap flow. Not because it is drying out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_of_decay_in_trees

Here is an update. I decided to try the Top Jin/Grey Putty technique. I apologize to the anti-sealers out there haha. I also cut the roots back and repotted it. I'm excited to see how this one does. Thank you to all who gave advice.

Jphipps said:

Here is an update. I decided to try the Top Jin/Grey Putty technique. I apologize to the anti-sealers out there haha. I also cut the roots back and repotted it. I'm excited to see how this one does. Thank you to all who gave advice.

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Applying the TopJin and putty will certainly cause no harm.

I applied the Top Jin right away on each cut within the 30 sec time-frame, waited a day and applied the putty. Hopefully I left enough stub on each cut I made.

Also, how long do I leave the putty on for? I want to make sure it doesn't get in the way or prevent any buds from popping out.

Harunobu said:

Yes, they don't regenerate damaged tissue.



All the more reason to be sure you are right about what you say.




The damaged cells die either way.

How do you know it prevents dieback?



So why 30 seconds? What happens? And how do you know? You believe his claims about magical 30 seconds just because he is a good artist?



Yes, this means nothing.

Causation is not correlation. You need to have a control. You could as well throw salt over your left shoulder and say you don't have dieback because of that.
A plant will have dieback when it decides it has to compartmentalize out all the cambium that branch depends on. It will desiccate because of the cambium tissue being walled out, stopping the sap flow. Not because it is drying out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_of_decay_in_trees

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Did you even read the link you posted?

In the section labeled "Theoritical Background" it states that wounds allow fungi and other organisms to enter the tree, and starts to rot the wood. Trees respond by compartmentalisation to stop or slow the process. It goes on to talk about how the tree builds "walls" to defend itself from the infection, and the fourth wall is growing callous to cover over the wound. This callous is what I call "healing".

But that's rather beside the point. The point is wounds allow fungi and "other organisms" ( which I would assume to be bacteria and possibly viruses) to infect the tree.

Well, this is the purpose of the TopJin and cut paste! To prevent the fungi and bacteria from entering the wound! TopJin has anti fungal and antibacterial properties. If the cause of the rot or decay is prevented from infecting the tree, the tree can get along doing its business of repairing itself by building the walls your article spoke of.

Thank you for proving why cut paste is beneficial!

Jphipps said:

Also, how long do I leave the putty on for? I want to make sure it doesn't get in the way or prevent any buds from popping out.

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Leave the putty on until end of summer, at least.

Azalea bud back very well. Not necessarily at the very tip ends of the chop like elms do. You should get back buds on every thing, including the trunk.

Once you do get back buds, and new sprouts going, you will be pruning back to one of them on each chop. At which time, you will TopJin and putty again.

TopJin and putty are relatively soft. When the callous starts to form around the edges of the cut, it can push the TopJin and putty off. From around the edges. As the callous grows over the wound, you want to periodically check to make sure the heartwood is covered. Azalea wood rots pretty easily, keeping it covered keeps that fungi out. So you wont start rot and have a hollow tree. (Assuming you don want a hollow tree.)

Some cut pastes dry hard as a brick. Personally, I don't like those as much. I think they tend to inhibit the callous growth. That's my opinion based not upon controlled scientific experiments, but based upon my observation of bonsai trees where it has been applied. They tend to do a good job of preventing decay and rot. But the trees appear to be slow in callousing over it. (Note: I was careful not to say "heal over it"! Lol!)

Adair M said:

Well, this is the purpose of the TopJin and cut paste! To prevent the fungi and bacteria from entering the wound! TopJin has anti fungal and antibacterial properties. If the cause of the rot or decay is prevented from infecting the tree, the tree can get along doing its business of repairing itself by building the walls your article spoke of.

Thank you for proving why cut paste is beneficial!

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Really? Have you tested this? You can't just say some cut paste has these magical properties to keep out all microorganisms. It doesn't work like that. Some manufacturers claim their cut paste seals off the wound so no microorganisms can get in. They provide no evidence. You need quite a neat tight seal to make it smaller than the diameter of a cell. Never mind the microorganisms that are already there.

Same with whatever molecule they put in to inhibit microbial or fungal growth. We can't even kill dangerous microorganisms in people with billions of research funds. Are you sure cut paste can do so in plants? Don't believe their claims. There will be microorganisms and there will be growth in the tissue that's decaying after you cut a branch. That you can get cut paste that has something microorganisms can grow on, that you put some growth inhibitor in that prevents microorganisms from growing on the cut paste as the medium, I can believe that. But you need whatever molecule you have as an inhibitor to diffuse into the plant tissue and be there in sufficiently high concentrations. Then you need several, as one won't target all microorganisms. And the ones that are really effective, they are way too expensive to put in cut paste (maybe not for bonsai, but who buys a tube of 300 dollar cut paste?) And even then it is not a sure case that it will actually work.

So they put some cheap stuff in the paste, make claims that it contains growth inhibitors (never mind they have 0% effectiveness), then they just sell it and people buy.
It would be stupid to make a tube that would cost 300 dollars, then test it properly, then find out it can't be shown experimentally to be beneficial.

You have your own opinion on what cut paste is good. Some other person swears by some other cut paste; it has to be rock hard. It is like religion.

I do agree that putting soft stuff on should be less harmful than putting hard stuff on. But we can't be sure until that's tested.

Best results I have ever had on azalea wound healing?
1) Bees wax candle like in the old days of grafting
2) Elmer's glue

Jphipps said:

Here is an update. I decided to try the Top Jin/Grey Putty technique. I apologize to the anti-sealers out there haha. I also cut the roots back and repotted it. I'm excited to see how this one does. Thank you to all who gave advice.

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I like what you have done. Last year I aimed to do the same with my satsuki, but didn't receive good piece of advice from our local forum, so I put it off for later. I will follow this thread and maybe your steps (with this tree) if you don't mind.
Concerning cut paste removal... When it starts callousing, you can remove putty falling off healed edges of the wounds making sure the rest is covered.
There're always two groups if we talk about use or do not use wound sealants... WP is one who doesn't for example. I do, for wounds bigger than 0.5 cm or so depending on tree size. Last year I cut my Hawthorn deeply, some wounds were covered by cut paste, some were left alone. Those covered have already started closing. Those left alone are (were) still white, dry and without any change. I'm sorry I can't show it, but I've re-done the cuts and covered all. Every1 has a chance to try it with or without and compare the results.

Harunobu said:

Really? Have you tested this? You can't just say some cut paste has these magical properties to keep out all microorganisms. It doesn't work like that. Some manufacturers claim their cut paste seals off the wound so no microorganisms can get in. They provide no evidence. You need quite a neat tight seal to make it smaller than the diameter of a cell. Never mind the microorganisms that are already there.

Same with whatever molecule they put in to inhibit microbial or fungal growth. We can't even kill dangerous microorganisms in people with billions of research funds. Are you sure cut paste can do so in plants? Don't believe their claims. There will be microorganisms and there will be growth in the tissue that's decaying after you cut a branch. That you can get cut paste that has something microorganisms can grow on, that you put some growth inhibitor in that prevents microorganisms from growing on the cut paste as the medium, I can believe that. But you need whatever molecule you have as an inhibitor to diffuse into the plant tissue and be there in sufficiently high concentrations. Then you need several, as one won't target all microorganisms. And the ones that are really effective, they are way too expensive to put in cut paste (maybe not for bonsai, but who buys a tube of 300 dollar cut paste?) And even then it is not a sure case that it will actually work.

So they put some cheap stuff in the paste, make claims that it contains growth inhibitors (never mind they have 0% effectiveness), then they just sell it and people buy.
It would be stupid to make a tube that would cost 300 dollars, then test it properly, then find out it can't be shown experimentally to be beneficial.

You have your own opinion on what cut paste is good. Some other person swears by some other cut paste; it has to be rock hard. It is like religion.

I do agree that putting soft stuff on should be less harmful than putting hard stuff on. But we can't be sure until that's tested.

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This is my last post on this subject.

Do I have proof? Whatever I say, you will poo poo it. I have results. I've been doing this with my azaleas for two years. No dieback. Maybe I'm just lucky. I don't have hundreds of cheap azalea to test this process. I have a few nice azalea. That I don't want to risk.

I have studied with a guy who went to Japan to study satsuki azaleas, exclusively. He was taught this regimen there. By the guys who produce the finest satsuki azalea in the world. Maybe they're clueless, I don't know. But their azaleas are incredible.

I didn't make this stuff up. I'm sharing what I've learned from people who do satsuki azalea at the highest level.

What I was told is that TopJin cut paste has antifungal and antibiotic properties. I'm sorry, the paper insert in the box is entirely in Japanese. So, I don't know what chemicals they've put in it to do that.

I don't think it's meant to be a systemic fungicide/antibiotic, just be a topical treatment. Much like you might apply iodine or "Triple antibiotic ointment" to a cut you might get. The idea us to kill whatever bad stuff on the surface, then seal it quick to prevent new bad stuff from gaining access. Which is why you do it "immediately". The 30 second rule doesn't mean that if you do 35 seconds later it won't work, it just means don't wait 30 minutes to do it! Make a couple cuts, seal them up. Then make a few more, seal them. And so on. Don't make all your cuts and then go back to seal them all. Seal as you go.

Look, I bought a $400 imported, quarantined tree:



I plan to make a shohin out of it. The trunk I want to keep is about 4 to 5 inches tall. I don't want any dieback on the trunk.

Here it is after the cutback:



That picture was taken after putting the grey putty on top of the orange TopJin.

Here's a picture after it popped back:



No die back.

In a week or so, I'll do it again, selecting which of the new branches are keepers. I left more branches than I needed, just in case I did have some dieback ( no techniques is 100 percent perfect), but I didn't have any.

Now, since it's not difficult to apply cut paste, nor expensive (TopJin is about $15 on Amazon, and you can use plumbers or electrical putty for the grey stuff) should I risk not applying it because you say it's not necessary???

Sorry, maybe it has no more effect than throwing salt over my left shoulder, I'm still using it!

Here's another of my azalea:



It, too, gets the same treatment.

Until you can show me that I am somehow harming my trees, I'm sticking to my technique.

It doesn't work like that.

You need to test the treatment. You do your treatment on one plant, you do no treatment to the other. Besides that the two plants need to be as similar as possible. All dissimilarities you can't get rid off, and there will always be some, need to report. Then, you need to do that often enough to make the results statistically relevant.

That trees look nice, that is just an argument from authority. Just because they are great bonsai artists doesn't mean all their scientific claims are true exactly because they are great bonsai artists.
When you

If you want to know how much microbial growth there is, you need to do measurements. Like take tissue samples and do qPCR using DNA markers for certain microbes.

Cut paste is like religion? Not to me.
I've used it on some cuts and not on others, even doing both methods on the same tree.
Cuts covered with some form of sealer calloused better, every time.
No faith needed with a "semi" controlled experiment.
The key is to use what method gives YOU success. Try both ways and observe the results.

Harunobu said:

It doesn't work like that.

You need to test the treatment. You do your treatment on one plant, you do no treatment to the other. Besides that the two plants need to be as similar as possible. All dissimilarities you can't get rid off, and there will always be some, need to report. Then, you need to do that often enough to make the results statistically relevant.

That trees look nice, that is just an argument from authority. Just because they are great bonsai artists doesn't mean all their scientific claims are true exactly because they are great bonsai artists.
When you

If you want to know how much microbial growth there is, you need to do measurements. Like take tissue samples and do qPCR using DNA markers for certain microbes.

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So, you want me to test using cut paste on one $400 tree, and not on another $400 tree?

Ok, fine. I'll do it! Happily!

Just send me $800, and I'll aquire the trees, and document it here for your amusement!

Adair M said:

Ok, fine. I'll do it! Happily!

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That made my day Two reasons - you get heated up way to easy. And @Harunobu knows Azalea I mean really knows Azalea. On the subject however I did not need pictures for you to prove what works for you, I believed you... I am going to suggest it may be a very good practice to follow but what seems to be missing here is that not all things work the same for everyone, everywhere, every time. It does for you and I understand - really. What others experience is different for a wide range of reasons. Many do not need a topical that addresses fungal issues, many do. It is a wide open subject and I certainly don't look at your advice as bad or good and needs to be used when a situation dictates so. Climate and the condition of the plant along with the type needs to be considered... It really is all important and as with light and substrate could be argued for no real reason...

I do however thank you for sharing, always good to see and hear a different perspective. On the other side of the fence - Harunobu knows what works for him... "breath deep"

Grimmy

Harunobu said:

You need to test the treatment. You do your treatment on one plant, you do no treatment to the other. Besides that the two plants need to be as similar as possible. All dissimilarities you can't get rid off, and there will always be some, need to report. Then, you need to do that often enough to make the results statistically relevant.

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One must compare groups of plants treated one way versus another group treated the other way, not just one specimen of each way. There will, of course, be variations in each group because of any number of uncontrolled/hidden variables (such as the plants, the weather). In essence, the worst/least of one group must be better than the best/most of the other for there to demonstrate a positive result of the treatment. Mathematical statistics gives us a way to draw this distinction more precisely.