Juniper procumbens - Cascade to Literati Cascade?

I have been growing this Juniper procumbens as a cascade for about 9 - 10 years of which most of those years I didn't have a clue what I was doing?

So for a while now I have been looking at the cascade and I have not been happy with the growth on most of the pads running down the cascade. With my limited knowledge over the years, I feel that I have done more harm then good and I am not sure that the pads will be able to be sorted.

This got me thinking on how to rescue the tree and make something from it. So going through the web and looking for inspiration I stumbled across a picture of a literati cascade that I just thought was amazing. Seeing this literati made me think that it would be possible to covered my cascade into a literati cascade.

The base of the trunk already has good movement and will work nicely over the edge of a pot. All growth above this area can be killed off a Jin's created.



The growth at the bottom will become the "Canopy". As it is the youngest part of the tree, I have hardly ever done any work on it and it should lend itself to being styled correctly for the future.


All growth along the trunk can be removed and the trunk line can be wired and bent to make the cascade literati more believable and appealing.


This is the image of the literati that made me think that it was possible. Unfortunately the website did not say who's tree this is so I cannot give credit where due.


Would love to hear your thoughts or suggestions on this.

Your idea is very interesting. The pictures are all good close-ups. But I for one would like to get an overall impression of the tree. Could you post 1 or 2 pictures of the entire tree for us?

Dorian Fourie said:

This got me thinking on how to rescue the tree and make something from it.

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A few pictures against a plain background of the whole plant would really help - especially at a level viewing angle. Looks like you have something to work with but need to see it differently

Grimmy

Thanks guys. Very valid point.

Not at home now so pulled some pics off my fb page. As soon as I can I will take some new ones.

Let's start at the beginning... what kind of Juniper is this? I suspect it perhaps is a Procumbens... perhaps nana, maybe not? Not sure where you are located at and Procumbens originates in Japan, but I know that there are often different types of Chinese junipers that look very similar.

Understanding the traits and characteristics of a particular type, allows one to understand what can successfully be accomplished and how you should move forward with style.

So, before moving on with style you should ask yourself if you feel this tree is ready to move forward. First place to start would be the trunk... are you happy with the thickness of the trunk. If not, then the main concern then would be increasing it's size.

For me, I would probably like to see a bit more girth, but I also could see where one could accomplish a very nice elegant tree with a thin trunk in the style you are interested in.

Now, the issue of having a thin trunk means that a tree will only be believable if I has a very sparse or minimal amount of foliage. Why do I say this... because in Bonsai the key is to try and create a tree that looks big. That looks as if it is an enormous tree that is only scaled down. If you have a thin trunk, and a ton of foliage mass, this does the opposite. .. it makes the tree feel small.

So, very important to understand the traits and characteristics of the material to see if it would be able to support such limited amount of foliage. It is my opinion, that this tree will. And if it is a Procumbens, it most certainly will.

So, then one would need to examine how to move forward, this is of course unless one wished to increase size of the trunk. So, saying one is cool with that is ready to take it to the next step and begin to define the material... the first step would be consideration of the pot.

The pot is way to deep for moving forward with. Why? If you are now seeking to eliminate most of what is there and are not concerned with increasing trunk size, you will now have to set up the growing environment for a tree with little foliage mass to survive with. Which means a lot more air need to be introduced to the roots. More air means finer roots, which means more growth in a tighter confined area.

So, step one... smaller pot. I suspect you would be able to put this in a cascading pot about a third or smaller than the size you currently have it in.

Step two, begin to examine and determine what to remove, when to remove and if all at once or little at a time. I would caution doing this amount of work at the sane time as poting, because it puts a lot of stress on the tree and if you are not familiar with doing this or the material, as well as the after care, it might not end up positive. If you are... then cool.

For me, I would probably start off with eliminating all but the last clump of foliage at the bottom. Don't see any of it being of use in the style you have chosen.
This includes as well the second trunk shooting up.

I would then consider seeing how and where I could go about doing and adding some bends to the trunk, to give it visually more interest. Don't think you need to many. But, with a style you have chosen, they need to be well thought out and planned. With a very minimalist tree, every action matters and counts within the tree.

There are plenty of threads here regarding bending, wiring, potting, etc. Check them out. Once you have gone this distance and the tree has recovered and going strong again... post it up and then start looking to discuss how to design and eliminate further the foliage.

EDIT* Sorry, just now saw that it is a Procumbens and is your thread title! My bad... still not awake today!

Thanks Sawgrass for a very detailed response. It is responses like that, that make me love forums.

No problem with not seeing the heading about Procumbens. I know that feeling. I am not sure why it does not show up below my image but I live in Johannesburg South Africa.

are you happy with the thickness of the trunk

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I have had this tree in a deep pot for the last 8 years and I do not know if I will ever be happy with the thickness. I am not sure if it is the medium that I have been using. I have been trying a new mix to thicken up 2 of my Japanese black pine and the results over the last year have been spectacular, so maybe I should change it and leave it for a year to see if I get some extra thickness on the trunk.

In saying that, I have to agree with you that one could accomplish a very nice elegant tree with a thin trunk in the style I am interested in.

sawgrass said:

So, step one... smaller pot. I suspect you would be able to put this in a cascading pot about a third or smaller than the size you currently have it in.

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Definitely agree with you. As much as I like this pot, a smaller one is definitely the way to go. I think the best thing to do is get a smaller pot to begin with and then look for something further down the line that will compliment the tree.

sawgrass said:

For me, I would probably start off with eliminating all but the last clump of foliage at the bottom. Don't see any of it being of use in the style you have chosen.
This includes as well the second trunk shooting up.

Click to expand...

Once again agree with you on this. The growth right at the last clump is very strong and very dense and I believe that it should be able to keep the tree alive if all the other growth has been removed. The 2nd trunk growing up, must be removed but I would like to great a nice jin with that. I will have to examine it carefully and then bend the hell out if it to create the desired effect.

sawgrass said:

I would then consider seeing how and where I could go about doing and adding some bends to the trunk, to give it visually more interest. Don't think you need to many. But, with a style you have chosen, they need to be well thought out and planned. With a very minimalist tree, every action matters and counts within the tree.

Click to expand...

Currently the bend of the cascade is very much in a plain S format with nothing else going for it. It will definitely need more movement but I think it means doing some drawings and like you said, think this out properly and plan it properly.

My plan was to wire the trunk very tightly so that it immediately starts to bite into the trunk and create a shari running along the trunk. Now I am not too sure if I am right to want to do this but I think it may add character into the trunk.

But wanting to do that opens up 2 questions to me.

1. Should I do it before trimming all the growth off so that the growth will assist with the thickening up of the trunk and the swelling around the wire. Also then bend the wire into the planned movement.
2. Or remove the growth, wire, bend into the planned movement and leave it for the next few years to bite and create shari over a few years?

Thoughts on that?

Dorian Fourie said:

Thanks Sawgrass for a very detailed response. It is responses like that, that make me love forums.

No problem with not seeing the heading about Procumbens. I know that feeling. I am not sure why it does not show up below my image but I live in Johannesburg South Africa.


I have had this tree in a deep pot for the last 8 years and I do not know if I will ever be happy with the thickness. I am not sure if it is the medium that I have been using. I have been trying a new mix to thicken up 2 of my Japanese black pine and the results over the last year have been spectacular, so maybe I should change it and leave it for a year to see if I get some extra thickness on the trunk.

In saying that, I have to agree with you that one could accomplish a very nice elegant tree with a thin trunk in the style I am interested in.


Definitely agree with you. As much as I like this pot, a smaller one is definitely the way to go. I think the best thing to do is get a smaller pot to begin with and then look for something further down the line that will compliment the tree.


Once again agree with you on this. The growth right at the last clump is very strong and very dense and I believe that it should be able to keep the tree alive if all the other growth has been removed. The 2nd trunk growing up, must be removed but I would like to great a nice jin with that. I will have to examine it carefully and then bend the hell out if it to create the desired effect.


Currently the bend of the cascade is very much in a plain S format with nothing else going for it. It will definitely need more movement but I think it means doing some drawings and like you said, think this out properly and plan it properly.

My plan was to wire the trunk very tightly so that it immediately starts to bite into the trunk and create a shari running along the trunk. Now I am not too sure if I am right to want to do this but I think it may add character into the trunk.

But wanting to do that opens up 2 questions to me.

1. Should I do it before trimming all the growth off so that the growth will assist with the thickening up of the trunk and the swelling around the wire. Also then bend the wire into the planned movement.
2. Or remove the growth, wire, bend into the planned movement and leave it for the next few years to bite and create shari over a few years?

Thoughts on that?

Click to expand...

A couple of things then to consider...

Wire wrapped tight will cut in automatically. .. when ever I have done this type if procedure, you need to make sure you have at the beginning of wrapping, the wire secure. A good anchor, so it does not have any play or movement.

Also, consider how far back you start... you don't want the base portion of the trunk not to have a scar and the rest to have it, looks odd. .. so, I would suggest you start at the very base or roots.

I usually will take my pliers and pull, cranking the wire really into the bark. Forcing it from the start to cut in substantially. Second, you need to be as uneven and as random as possible with the spacing if the wire, you don't want a perfect candy cane... does not look natural.

The more growth that the tree puts on, the faster it will cut in... so, keeping the foliage you want to remove sounds ideal here... however, one will often run into an issue where if this portion is growing strong, it might bite in faster than other areas... and you will end up with a reverse taper issue. I would probably suggest, not total removal at this point, but, keep the areas one will not want, in check, and trimmed. Let some leaders run off the very end, that you could use a sacrifice branches, don't obviously let everything run rampant in this area or you will end up chasing back... a fate worse than death!

I usually let the wire cut in to the point that it is almost burried... bark has almost covered over it. Then carefully remove. The inner wood or pith at these areas will be fragile, until they have had some time to dry up and the branch has put on a bit more growth.

Slowly over a period of time, take a razor blade and little by little remove the cambium layers or live veins back away from the bit in area.

Lastly, doing a procedure such as this puts this the main priority then... Seeing that it is like growing out the trunk for size.

It would be nice to have some photos standing a little further back with what you consider the front of the tree at the front of the photograph(?) In short let's see the tree from the angle you would display the tree from. I don't think your idea to change the style of the tree is the real source of your displeasure with this tree. Many Junipers especially Procumbens Junipers are grown in a cascade style, unsuccessfully, I might add. The reason being is firstly the reason most cascades fail and literates as well.

You have to realize that a bonsai is supposed to reflect a struggle with nature and the two styles you have focused on are the two most associated with environmental extremes. The Literati is usually formed by exposure to extreme winds, elevation, attacks by porcupines, beetles and hurricane speed white out blizzards followed by many similar winters with temperatures in double digits below zero. If you keep this in mind you will start seeing what your problem is. The growth at the ends of the branches is too lush and full to exist on trees that have acquired the literati form.

You need to thin out your foliage pads and expose more of the secondary and tertiary branching. You will have to learn the correct way to thin out the growth on a Juniper I don't have the room here but you need to learn this. Now that we can see the secondary and tertiary branches you need to shape those branches. With Procumbens Junipers the trees have the tendency to be low growing trees that will hug the ground causing many beginners to conclude this tree will make a great cascade. Most procumbens, in the end make lousy cascades mostly, because the branches are left unshaped, and the pads are too full. Most Procumbems Junipers will push out branches that are straight and as uninteresting as a lecture about bread mold. Once the branches on either the Procumbens or the Literati are placed they have to be shaped to have a shape as though by the same elements that caused the tree's trunk to have the shape it has. The branches and foliage pads have to be shaped individually so that the inner structure of the pads can be seen and the out riders on the pad elements kind of play peek-a-boo with the trunk.

Sorry for the length of my explanation but from what I see this is your real problem. It is not the style it is the execution of it. It is for this reason I tell people the two most difficult styles are the Literati and the Cascade.

Again thanks so much for the detailed responses. It is definitely helping me think about the next step.

Vance Wood said:

In short let's see the tree from the angle you would display the tree from.

Click to expand...

Vance, to me this is the front of the tree and the viewing point.


My thoughts have been something in the following vain before I posted, with of course the Jin branches at the top.

Vance Wood said:

Most Procumbems Junipers will push out branches that are straight and as uninteresting as a lecture about bread mold.

Click to expand...

That is the best description I have heard in a long time. Brilliant.

Vance Wood said:

Once the branches on either the Procumbens or the Literati are placed they have to be shaped to have a shape as though by the same elements that caused the tree's trunk to have the shape it has. The branches and foliage pads have to be shaped individually so that the inner structure of the pads can be seen and the out riders on the pad elements kind of play peek-a-boo with the trunk.

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Absolutely agree.

As per the image below, I believe that the growth at the bottom of the cascade is perfect to be able to achieve that as there are numerous branches down there that I can pick and choose from and work on.
Thoughts?

Vance Wood said:

It is not the style it is the execution of it

Click to expand...

Absolutely. As I said right in the beginning, I grew this with no knowledge of what I was doing and now am "paying the price" for it.

But I also believe that it can be salvaged / rescued and although it may not ever be a show pony, it could still turn out to be something I enjoyed making and working on.

sawgrass said:

A couple of things then to consider...

Wire wrapped tight will cut in automatically. .. when ever I have done this type if procedure, you need to make sure you have at the beginning of wrapping, the wire secure. A good anchor, so it does not have any play or movement.

Also, consider how far back you start... you don't want the base portion of the trunk not to have a scar and the rest to have it, looks odd. .. so, I would suggest you start at the very base or roots.

I usually will take my pliers and pull, cranking the wire really into the bark. Forcing it from the start to cut in substantially. Second, you need to be as uneven and as random as possible with the spacing if the wire, you don't want a perfect candy cane... does not look natural.

The more growth that the tree puts on, the faster it will cut in... so, keeping the foliage you want to remove sounds ideal here... however, one will often run into an issue where if this portion is growing strong, it might bite in faster than other areas... and you will end up with a reverse taper issue. I would probably suggest, not total removal at this point, but, keep the areas one will not want, in check, and trimmed. Let some leaders run off the very end, that you could use a sacrifice branches, don't obviously let everything run rampant in this area or you will end up chasing back... a fate worse than death!

I usually let the wire cut in to the point that it is almost burried... bark has almost covered over it. Then carefully remove. The inner wood or pith at these areas will be fragile, until they have had some time to dry up and the branch has put on a bit more growth.

Slowly over a period of time, take a razor blade and little by little remove the cambium layers or live veins back away from the bit in area.

Lastly, doing a procedure such as this puts this the main priority then... Seeing that it is like growing out the trunk for size.

Click to expand...

Thanks Sawgrass for this. Just for clarity, one would only be wiring to achieve an ultimate shari and not wiring for movement on your future vision!

Now I took a few more images to maybe give a better all round view of the tree and inspire some more thoughts in the process.

This viewing angle could also work with maybe bring the lowest point back on itself and point it towards the left.

Again Thoughts, suggestions etc appreciated.

Dorian Fourie said:

This viewing angle could also work with maybe bring the lowest point back on itself and point it towards the left.

Again Thoughts, suggestions etc appreciated.

Click to expand...

I would think about this with an accent plant, and display in mind.

Go slow removing things.....maybe the top this year....and a branch yearly following.

Sorce

The following 3 images are of the trunk line and growth area at the top.

sorce said:

I would think about this with an accent plant, and display in mind.

Go slow removing things.....maybe the top this year....and a branch yearly following.

Click to expand...

Sorce, good to hear from you.

Definitely do not want to rush this project. It is a masterpiece in progress.

What looks like all bar branches on the cascade are actually not at all!

A little manipulation of the pads and cascade and you got a nice regular cascade.

Yeah....if just take the top off....the very top....not that one low big one yet.

Sorce

sorce said:

What looks like all bar branches on the cascade are actually not at all!

Click to expand...

Yeah, that is one thing I got right. None at all.

sorce said:

A little manipulation of the pads and cascade and you got a nice regular cascade.

Click to expand...

Thanks so much

So I took the bull by the horns today and got stuck into this Juniper. Firstly I removed all the top growth so that the branch can die off and ultimately be cleaned up as a Jin. Luckily I had wired it long ago so there is plenty of movement in the finer trunks. I wired it again, bent the hell out of it, and secured it up. I cleaned off a load of bark so I am sure it will die easily enough.

I also wired the trunk with copper wire as I felt that it would hold better then Aluminium. I tried not to make it look like a candy can with wiring some tight bends and then longer wraps around the trunk.

I would like to see the tree in its entirety, some times details, when isolated, are nice but the real impact is justified or vilified by their over-all effect on the entire tree. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but that's the way you have to look at it as well. I believe your current detail work is very good but does it fit and make the over all image better?

Vance Wood said:

I would like to see the tree in its entirety, some times details, when isolated, are nice but the real impact is justified or vilified by their over-all effect on the entire tree. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but that's the way you have to look at it as well. I believe your current detail work is very good but does it fit and make the over all image better?

Click to expand...

Very true Vance

Some full pics below.
This is what I think is the correct front in the future. I will have to still put more movement into the trunk further down the line. (If you think I am wrong, please feel free to let me know)



I also feel this could work if I bring the bottom more round to the right hand side.

At this point much will depend on how you envision the structure, placement and ramification of the foliage pads. The trouble with Procumbens Junipers is in the fact that the foliage pads are as a rule pretty full naturally which has the tendency to deceive us into believing that we are almost done. Notice the one really annoying trait of this species: Tons of lush green growth on thin spindly branches, limbs and trunks. This also makes the creating of believable dead wood features difficult because they tend to decay rapidly. This is a really good learning tree. It's nice by it's species and as it ages you will start to see possibilities you probably do not yet identify.

I have to agree with you on the growth. I have a few more in the ground busy thickening up but I always feel it is ready to do something until I check closely and its not even close.

I have had this for quite a while so I think with the new direction that I am thinking of, it could work long term. So lets see how it goes and I am sure (like you said) more possibilities in the future.

Thanks for the feedback Vance. Appreciate it.