Pigletts Progress

Cadillactaste · Mar 15, 2016

Jeremy said:
I did call it a waste of wire, not that it greatly concerns me. Wiring is a key essential part of building excellent bonsai. The point I was making is that it seems to me to be redundant to wire past the first or second node, all the way to the tips focussing on adding movement throughout the entire length. All those wiggles you spent time adding will be cut off in one months time. The movement that's gained from where the branch emerges to the point it will be cut to, could've been gained by using less wire and less time.

Though I get your thought process...I can't see it working. You would have a mess of branches sticking every which way. Some possibly in the way of other or will hinder growth of some. Let along a butt ugly mess on ones bench. Surely not taken seriously not being able to judge maybe something needing tweaked...or what not.

Shoot when I wire I make my pieces longer than need be. So not to run out before I reach the end.

I've yet to get down the unwrapping wire just yet. Tried...broke a branch trying to do it. So on delicate branches they get cut off. Still practicing on sturdier branches.

Jeremy · Mar 15, 2016

Adair M said:
Here are two of Walters' trees:

Which do you prefer?

View attachment 97813

View attachment 97814

The second tree is very close to the style that Judy is going for. I like the style. But the execution is lacking. The structure branches are knobby, there's too much of a drastic change between the chop and the ramification, too many straight sections.

Looking at overall style, the second is more appealing to me. There are many flaws though and the branches seemed rushed, particularly the entire apex area. Could do with growing out for thickness, cut back very hard and regrown with more movement. The first tree is very Japanese and easy to be awestruck if that is the style you're used to seeing in books or on the internet. I appreciate the time and skill that has been put in, but its too contrived for a deciduous tree. Its art though, and we all have our own interpretation of the perfect tree

Why do you not like angular branches? When wiring in early developmental stages we exaggerate curves as when the branch thickens the movement is lost. So cutting back to a bud that shoots off 90 degrees will look natural when the branch thickens and the chop heals. You wont get bulges if you chop correctly....

jquast · Mar 15, 2016

Jeremy said:
I did call it a waste of wire, not that it greatly concerns me. Wiring is a key essential part of building excellent bonsai. The point I was making is that it seems to me to be redundant to wire past the first or second node, all the way to the tips focussing on adding movement throughout the entire length. All those wiggles you spent time adding will be cut off in one months time. The movement that's gained from where the branch emerges to the point it will be cut to, could've been gained by using less wire and less time.

I think that the point of wiring the full length is so that you can bend the tip upwards so that the growth of the branch does not stall and slow down its growth. If you only bend the first few nodes and leave the rest to droop down it will lose vigor to the apex of the tree.

Jeremy · Mar 15, 2016

Cadillactaste said:
Though I get your thought process...I can't see it working. You would have a mess of branches sticking every which way. Some possibly in the way of other or will hinder growth of some. Let along a butt ugly mess on ones bench. Surely not taken seriously not being able to judge maybe something needing tweaked...or what not.

Shoot when I wire I make my pieces longer than need be. So not to run out before I reach the end.

I've yet to get down the unwrapping wire just yet. Tried...broke a branch trying to do it. So on delicate branches they get cut off. Still practicing on sturdier branches.

The whole branch will bend down though, the tips will then start to grow up resulting in stronger growth and they should be out far enough away from the trunk to not cause excessive shading. In any case, partially defoliate those leaves that wont be in the design but keep the growing tip in tact. I was thinking this was peoples reasoning, wanting something that resembles bonsai 90% of the time. If it aint being shown, let it be ugly!

When unwiring thin branches, try holding the next wrap and work your way down the branch. This way your holding the wire and supporting the branch, the branch shouldn't move and risk breakage. If that makes sense..

Cadillactaste · Mar 15, 2016

Jeremy said:
The whole branch will bend down though, the tips will then start to grow up resulting in stronger growth and they should be out far enough away from the trunk to not cause excessive shading. In any case, partially defoliate those leaves that wont be in the design but keep the growing tip in tact. I was thinking this was peoples reasoning, wanting something that resembles bonsai 90% of the time. If it aint being shown, let it be ugly!

When unwiring thin branches, try holding the next wrap and work your way down the branch. This way your holding the wire and supporting the branch, the branch shouldn't move and risk breakage. If that makes sense..

Defoliation is done for a purpose...You go ahead...and go your route. And keep us posted. I can think of a few loop holes in your theory. I would rather my tree use stored up energy pushing branch growth than leaf buds from defoliation. In my minds eye. I see waisted energy recovering from the defoliation.

I'm not sure I understand how you know how to unwhined wire...if you only partially wire your trees.

JudyB · Mar 15, 2016

@Jeremy
If it helps you imagine the tree down the road it is not wasted. I find that making the tree the best possible at any given moment in it's life, even if I plan to cut it off helps me to see the final image better. For me, it's like putting a stock piece in a good (but large) pot for development. It helps me to envision the tree as it could be later in it's life.

Jeremy · Mar 15, 2016

Cadillactaste said:
Defoliation is done for a purpose...You go ahead...and go your route. And keep us posted. I can think of a few loop holes in your theory. I would rather my tree use stored up energy pushing branch growth than leaf buds from defoliation. In my minds eye. I see waisted energy recovering from the defoliation.

I'm not sure I understand how you know how to unwhined wire...if you only partially wire your trees.

I don't partially wire my trees, I just don't wire them every growth flush. If I did I would be doing it many many times per year. My growing season is a lot longer than most. Majority of my tree are Ficus, but training is the same. Grow out, cut back to 2 nodes if possible, sometimes 1 if the first node is too long, sometime 3-4 if they are very close. Repeat the process a few times, then wire all the branches you've made. They will be very pliable still and lots of movement can be put in.

Partial defoliation has no health risks to a tree, its used to let light into the interior to force backbudding and help out weak inner shoots. It is NOT the same as full defoliation which is used for a number of reasons. The growing tip is not cut, and most of the leaves that are cut won't produce shoots until the auxin flow is disrupted. No energy wasted. The branch continues to elongate and put on girth.

Adair M · Mar 15, 2016

JudyB said:
Sharing is nice... I love a good bottle of wine.

You should been at the Redneck Study Group a couple weekends ago. I brought a 1975 Haut-Bages Liberal.

Still good!

Adair M · Mar 15, 2016

Unwinding wire:

First, when wiring the branch in the first place, leave a little fishhook of wire pointing up and back. That holds the terminal bud in place.

When removing, grab the end of the fishhook with Jin pliers. With your other hand, hold the branch and wire, one turn back towards the trunk. Now unwind by spinning the pliers around in your hand, the opposite direction it was wired. Just do one turn, stop, move your "other" hand back one turn, and spin the pliers again. Continue on this way until you reach the anchor point. Darlene, that's the "V" of the slingshot! Then find the other end of the wire, and unwire in the same manner until you reach the anchor point. Then the wire can be pulled out of the canopy.

Smoke · Mar 15, 2016

I would be interested in seeing four or five good tridents from four or five people here. Sounds like a lot of experts to me, but no trees?

Cadillactaste · Mar 15, 2016

Adair M said:
Unwinding wire:

First, when wiring the branch in the first place, leave a little fishhook of wire pointing up and back. That holds the terminal bud in place.

When removing, grab the end of the fishhook with Jin pliers. With your other hand, hold the branch and wire, one turn back towards the trunk. Now unwind by spinning the pliers around in your hand, the opposite direction it was wired. Just do one turn, stop, move your "other" hand back one turn, and spin the pliers again. Continue on this way until you reach the anchor point. Darlene, that's the "V" of the slingshot! Then find the other end of the wire, and unwire in the same manner until you reach the anchor point. Then the wire can be pulled out of the canopy.

Yes,leaving the hook at the end. So the hand without pliers winds the wire once loose? Or wire ends up once off branch...around plier tip?

Adair M · Mar 15, 2016

No, the hand holding the branch and wire just supports.

The wire doesn't wind around the pliers, it extends out of the canopy.

I'll see if I can find a picture of Akio doing it...

Smoke · Mar 15, 2016

Adair M said:
No, the hand holding the branch and wire just supports.

The wire doesn't wind around the pliers, it extends out of the canopy.

I'll see if I can find a picture of Akio doing it...

OMG! Just cut the shit off!

Adair M · Mar 15, 2016

Here:

That's Akio removing wire. He's grabbed the end of the wire with the pliers. His left hand is holding the branch and wire one turn back. He's going to spin the pliers around to unwind the wire. His arm won't move much. The pliers never get inside the canopy.

Se how Akio's pliers never get inside the canopy?
His helper is Uchi. Uchi's left hand is holding the branch, and his other hand is hold pliers. It looks like he's in the middle of a twist.

Adair M · Mar 15, 2016

Smoke said:
OMG! Just cut the shit off!

Large wire, size 10 copper and larger, you do. The small stuff, it's easier to spin off.

Smoke · Mar 15, 2016

Adair M said:
Large wire, size 10 copper and larger, you do. The small stuff, it's easier to spin off.

I do both, whats the big deal. BTW, your pictures show absolutely nothing but two guys holding pliars and looking dapper. Wire must come off the tree from time to time. Take it off with the method that's easiest for you. There is no wire police and no....Boon is not going to hunt you down if you cut it off.

Adair M · Mar 15, 2016

Smoke said:
I do both, whats the big deal. BTW, your pictures show absolutely nothing but two guys holding pliars and looking dapper. Wire must come off the tree from time to time. Take it off with the method that's easiest for you. There is no wire police and no....Boon is not going to hunt you down if you cut it off.

Sorry it's not a video. I'm trying to answer Darlene's question about how to do it. You have a problem with that?

Smoke · Mar 15, 2016

Maybe you should start a new thread and quit shlocking this one up with wire removal and stupid pictures of guys holding pliars. This one has be hijacked for three pages about who can do trident better, how to wire how to take off wire. I suggest you write an article or tutorial about it with a video and post it in the appropriate section of the forum where people can read about it and make up their own minds like civil people instead of being talked down to.

You got a problem with that?

Judy I am sorry your thread has taken a turn for the worst with this bantor. I have had plenty of threads ruined with endless crap and bragadocio. I can see a new ignore for me. I'm sure I won't miss much.

Don Blackmond · Mar 16, 2016

coh said:
Dare I say it? The first one looks like a bonsai. The second one looks like a tree.

Second one needs more development on the branches for sure, though.

Isn't that ironic. Suddenly the foundation of all that we thought we knew vanishes....

I like the second tree much more than the first tree, but I can appreciate both for what they truly are. The second tree looks real; the first tree looks contrived.

The individual branch taper on the first is more pleasing to the eye than the second, and that is the only valid point in Adair's comparison. Otherwise, we are comparing different styles and personal preferences.

sorce · Mar 16, 2016

@Jeremy
I've read it all....and I'm still 90% sure no one knows what you mean.
Plus, that little bit of wire that extends passed the first 2 nodes can be used to guide the rest of the branch away and to light.

Wait....Judy understands....and I understand her wiring all the way.....

@Cadillactaste it is easier to unwind with a pair of pliers that lock shut....ie vicegrips.....
I use these....found em in the river! Creepy!

Once locked you don't have to keep squeezing, it makes unwinding more ergonomic.
The offset head helps too.

Sorce

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