Spring Struggles on Collected Fir

macbeth · Apr 18, 2016

I was hoping to see if I could get some feedback on tested methods for rehabilitation when a tree is showing signs of struggling in the spring when it should be pushing. I have a collected Doug Fir with a number of the branches that have died over the winter. It was wintered in a greenhouse above 32F. It seems like there is at least a couple branches with color still in the needles and buds, so I think there is still some hope. It is warm here now (Chicago) and all of the other trees are pushing, but I haven't seen anything happen in this Fir.

I'm wondering if folks have any methods they have used to gently encourage struggling trees through the spring. It has been recommended to me to take sphagnum moss and soak it in a mixture of superthrive and rooting hormone and pile that around the top of the soil and keep it moist. All of this is to be done while keeping the tree sheltered from much light to slow down any growing process to try and not let the tree use up too many nutrients that it has left. So for this I am keeping it in a garage with one window.

Does anyone have information that they think this would be bad? Any other techniques to get trees to come back?

0soyoung · Apr 18, 2016

Douglas firs can be extremely cold hardy; roots can even withstand -30F if appropriately conditioned. There is no need to overwinter it anywhere other than outside. Especially, let it be exposed to the cold snaps of fall as this is what induces the cold hardiness.

In my experience, a branch without a bud will be a dead branch, but it can sometimes take an entire year to be obvious. When you prune it, I suggest that you always leave a bud. I've been told this isn't necessary if pruning is timed appropriately, but I still don't have that down.

Douglas fir buds require something like 1700 accumulated hours at 40F or less to break dormancy. Seedlings from colder climes tend to require even more chilling time. Most of my potted ones broke buds almost three weeks ago (as did most of the indigenous ones in my neighborhood), two are just now cracking, and the buds haven't even begun to swell yet. I have yet one more that didn't produce much new foliage last year and is very sickly this year even though it popped a couple of buds already. I expect it to be dead before this time next year and I think the one with unswollen buds is started on this same course.

In other words, I don't know of anything you can do now.

M. Frary · Apr 18, 2016

Did it get water last winter?

macbeth · Apr 18, 2016

Oso - Do you have any particular special care you use when a tree is struggling or do you just put it in the same spot as all of your other trees?

Mike - It was watered appropriately during the winter, it was at a greenhouse locally that overwinters bonsai. It is still only 1.5-2 years from collection which is the reason for the cautious winter care.

0soyoung · Apr 18, 2016

macbeth said:
Do you have any particular special care you use when a tree is struggling or do you just put it in the same spot as all of your other trees?

When I know/suspect root issues, I have shady spots and big clear plastic bags I put over them in the shade (a humidity tent). Other than that, there isn't anything special I know to do. I'm fiddling with cheap seedlings, so I've been in a mode of treating groupings and observing. All I can say is that there is no statistical evidence that anything I have done intentionally has had any effect.
My pseudotsugas are in as much full sun as I can give them, year-round, and all 17 seedlings from my experiment are kept together. If there is any difference, it seems that the weakest ones were in the best sun exposure during the winter. Maybe they stayed a tad warmer as a consequence - dunno. I also had my babies on my doorstep seedlings right beside them. These are progeny of Douglas firs from right across the street. All my experiment trees, on the other hand, are from ArborDay with no known provenance.
If you have a big refrigerator, I would put the tree in it for a few weeks and then see if the buds break; repeat until they do. It would be nice if there was a cheap chemical antagonist for abscisic acid (dab it on, and voila, cracked buds!). On the other hand, are you sure that you aren't dealing with a root problem (i.e, make a humidity tent)?

sorce · Apr 19, 2016

M. Frary said:
Did it get water last winter?

Did it get WINTER last winter?

Doubt it.

Sorce

macbeth · Apr 19, 2016

sorce said:
Did it get WINTER last winter?

Doubt it.

Sorce

Interesting take, but it did in fact get winter last winter. Do you have anything else to add?

macbeth · Apr 19, 2016

0soyoung said:
When I know/suspect root issues, I have shady spots and big clear plastic bags I put over them in the shade (a humidity tent). Other than that, there isn't anything special I know to do. I'm fiddling with cheap seedlings, so I've been in a mode of treating groupings and observing. All I can say is that there is no statistical evidence that anything I have done intentionally has had any effect.
My pseudotsugas are in as much full sun as I can give them, year-round, and all 17 seedlings from my experiment are kept together. If there is any difference, it seems that the weakest ones were in the best sun exposure during the winter. Maybe they stayed a tad warmer as a consequence - dunno. I also had my babies on my doorstep seedlings right beside them. These are progeny of Douglas firs from right across the street. All my experiment trees, on the other hand, are from ArborDay with no known provenance.
If you have a big refrigerator, I would put the tree in it for a few weeks and then see if the buds break; repeat until they do. It would be nice if there was a cheap chemical antagonist for abscisic acid (dab it on, and voila, cracked buds!). On the other hand, are you sure that you aren't dealing with a root problem (i.e, make a humidity tent)?

The humidity tent is an interesting idea. I think I am doing that in a less effective way by keeping it in the garage for now, but a humidity tent would allow it to get more light and retain moisture in the foliage.

M. Frary · Apr 19, 2016

macbeth said:
Interesting take, but it did in fact get winter last winter. Do you have anything else to add?

What he's getting at is maybe it needs to be colder. Not above freezing. Like let it be frozen solid for a couple months.
People freak out about the thought of letting their trees freeze. Trees like firs,tamaracke,mugo pines amur maples to name a few actually do better if in the deep freeze. It's what their adapted to.
So maybe Sorce is on the money when he says it didn't get enough winter last winter.

sorce · Apr 19, 2016

We didn't really get a winter.

Sorce

M. Frary · Apr 19, 2016

sorce said:
We didn't really get a winter.

Sorce

Kind of makes me glad I live where I do. I get winter once per year. Anywhere from 3 to 4 months worth. And we always go through below zero weather.

macbeth · Apr 19, 2016

M. Frary said:
What he's getting at is maybe it needs to be colder. Not above freezing. Like let it be frozen solid for a couple months.
People freak out about the thought of letting their trees freeze. Trees like firs,tamaracke,mugo pines amur maples to name a few actually do better if in the deep freeze. It's what their adapted to.
So maybe Sorce is on the money when he says it didn't get enough winter last winter.

Maybe he is, but it seems to me disingenuous to examine my situation and simply suggest the opposite care was the right care without any evidence or experiences described. What about in the PNW when winter temps rarely have a high below freezing, and doug firs are a very common species growing in the wild? I find it hard to believe, without some substantiated experience or other horticultural evidence that simply "not getting winter" is the cause. Oso at least provided a theory on number of hours in 40 degree or less.

In addition, I was mostly asking if anyone had techniques they use, now that it is spring, to try to save a struggling tree. I would be very much interested if you had any techniques you have tested in this regard.

fourteener · Apr 19, 2016

macbeth said:
Interesting take, but it did in fact get winter last winter. Do you have anything else to add?

It might not have gotten winter if it stayed above 32. Sometimes babying a tree is what is killing it. Tamaracks need to be frozen dormant for a minimum of 6 weeks or they won't do very well.

wireme · Apr 19, 2016

Morning sun when it's cool. Shade and high humidity and or misting the rest of the day. Wrap the entire trunk up to foliage with moist sphagnum if you want to go all out.
I doubt your garage is humid enough, if it is, you'll be getting mold issues in there.
Don't worry about buds growing or not, they often don't in the year or two after collection. Worry about general needle colour, healthy green and yo may be ok.
There's a high probability the tree is beyond help. The roots and lower trunk can be stone dead while needles stay green and very slowly fade, just the way it is.

wireme · Apr 19, 2016

This is my "super duper miracle root recovery blend" humic acid also used with this. Applied to collected trees on a strict schedule of whenever it seems like a good idea. I should add superthrive, probably grow roots out of my toenails if I spill some on my feet.

sorce · Apr 19, 2016

macbeth said:
Oso at least provided a theory on number of hours in 40 degree or less

All I'm doing is the rough math on that very theory.

If the late November snow didn't put em to rest....which it didnt mine...

They likely dodnt hit that number.....

Go ahead and shtick it in a bag and blah blah blah....

Or just do like Heinz Ketchup.

Wait.

Sorce

Waltron · Apr 19, 2016

I collected a smallish one last year, late summer, basically took the whole rootball and soil and plunked it in large nursery pot, sandwiched the rootball and native soil between 2 layers of Napa oil dry.. fertilized and watered till end of growing season, buried the whole pot in the garden bed for winter, covered the top of the pot with wood chips.. just pulled it out yesterday, still green as can be and every branch has bud action on it. year before I collected one and put the rootball and native soil straight in the ground in full sun, it lived for one year then died. I think younger ones actually prefer partial shade, but not exactly sure about that.

I would say your main issue was keeping it too warm in the greenhouse. they are native to the cold north, I think they need that cold dormancy.

0soyoung · Apr 19, 2016

fourteener said:
It might not have gotten winter if it stayed above 32.

Biologists tell me/us that 'winter' = temperatures below 40F (5C). Biological winter doesn't equal frozen water (though that also often happens in winter). If the water in a tree freezes, the tree is dead. The ice crystals puncture cell membranes. Trees sugar-up for cold to prevent cellular fluids from freezing - sugar is antifreeze.

There is a famous disaster attempting to grow Douglas firs in Monterey that revealed the chilling issue is in the buds with pseudotsuga - gotta suspect it is also a key for some other species. Google Scholar can lead you to many other papers studying bud chilling if you are interested,

chicago1980 · Jul 11, 2017

Any update on this tree? I am bringing a Douglas Fir to Chicago to acclimate in August. Thanks for any info.

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