Eric Group
Masterpiece
I think you did a great job.
Said better than many who use English as a first language.
1 to 6 ratio... is it really that common in nature?
- Thread starter barrosinc
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Said better than many who use English as a first language.
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
Thanks for the kind words. Often i need to think simple enough so my English is able to translate it... its a nice exercise. Back to topic. I like the big ones, but a slender trunk often tells more of a story. Give me one of each and i'll be happy.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
1/6 is a pretty good dead bonsai ratio too!
Sorce
Sorce
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
One dead and six alive or vice versa? Either way at least one makes it.
Elise Barbuck
Seed
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From: http://andyrutledge.com/book/content/challenges.html
It's all about perspective:
"In the sketches above, notice how they could easily be the same tree as seen from varying distances. Left to right, they suggest: far, nearer, close-up. Consider these forms when you are creating your own bonsai designs.
Be careful not to try and follow any set trunk width-to-height ratio for all bonsai. The trunk width-to-height ratio is wholly dependent on the image you want to portray and not on any set formula. Width-to-height ratio is just one tool used for expression. If you use the same ratio for all of your bonsai, you effectively render null the meaningful expression that can be obtained by artistically using this tool.
Lower ratios are for conveying close proximity, power, age or strength. High ratios are for conveying a distant view, grace or certain environmental conditions or for portraying the bunjin (literati) style. Learn to use the ratio that is appropriate for each specific bonsai composition. Make this ratio reinforce the message you want to convey and let the other compositional elements of the tree and display support this ratio..."
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markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
I found an example!
Height = 78'
Diameter (@ 4.5') = 12.7'
Height to width ratio = 6.14
Height = 78'
Diameter (@ 4.5') = 12.7'
Height to width ratio = 6.14
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
General Sherman is definitely not 6:1
Height = 274.9'
Diameter (@4.5') = 25.1'
Height to width ratio = 10.95
Height = 274.9'
Diameter (@4.5') = 25.1'
Height to width ratio = 10.95
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
Also, the Tule Tree is definitely not 6:1
Height = 116'
Diameter (@4.5') = 30.8'
Height to width ratio = 3.77
Height = 116'
Diameter (@4.5') = 30.8'
Height to width ratio = 3.77
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
Makes me wonder what the H/W ratio of some of the great bonsai trees really are.
Walter's great Japanese Maple = 8.47
Guy Guidry's Twister = 4.5
Vaughn Banting's flat top = 19.57
Shinji Suzuki's black pine = 4.5
Kunio Kobayashi's trident maple = 4.67
Couldn't find a 6:1 bonsai - easier to find them around 4.5. I'll have to keep looking.
Walter's great Japanese Maple = 8.47
Guy Guidry's Twister = 4.5
Vaughn Banting's flat top = 19.57
Shinji Suzuki's black pine = 4.5
Kunio Kobayashi's trident maple = 4.67
Couldn't find a 6:1 bonsai - easier to find them around 4.5. I'll have to keep looking.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
DSo the weird thing is this. The reference I remember for the 6:1 thing was John Naka:
But he often didn't follow this rule in his own trees either. Consider his great Montezuma Cypress (h/w = 15.83)
Or his Cork bark pine (h/w = 9.0)
But he often didn't follow this rule in his own trees either. Consider his great Montezuma Cypress (h/w = 15.83)
Or his Cork bark pine (h/w = 9.0)
Excellent!
Your pictures and measurements are very enlightening.
It's ironic: Naka's books are probably the most definitive set of "rules of bonsai". Many, many times I've heard people say, "That's not what Naka's books say", or "That technique is not in Naka's book". The treat them as if they were the Bible. Then, other times they'll quote Naka as saying, "Don't make the tree look like a bonsai, make the bonsai look like a tree!" Lol!!! They want to have it both ways!
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
My point was not to be critical of John Naka or those that follow his teaching. Indeed, it was through him that I became interested in bonsai to start with. I was a rank beginner and he was very patient and kind with me when I met him. The book I took the picture from I bought from John in Sacramento and it remains one of my treasured possessions. I have nothing but good things to say about him. My only point was that we all (including John Naka) work with the material we have and things end up in a way that looks good to us. All sorts of dimensions look good because that's the way nature comes. It was easier to find a 6:1 natural tree than it was to find a 6:1 bonsai.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
I forgot to measure a most important bonsai:
H/W = 5.35
You're close to perfect, Adair - if you just let that crown grow out a few more inches you'll be there.
H/W = 5.35
You're close to perfect, Adair - if you just let that crown grow out a few more inches you'll be there.
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
It is because of a thing called Gestalt psychology. You see our brains are so amazing that they fill in blanks and causes what is call an optical illusion. the 6:1 is an approximate point at which our brains tell us that the tree is much larger than it is. Yes it's part of the art but it's also science. Yes you can do what you want but you need to be aware of how the image is perceived.
Actually, that one is due for an overhaul!
It's time to take the wire off, thin, cut back, and refresh.
It will take me a couple days just to remove the wire!
leatherback
The Treedeemer
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I know we do not need to ask you for an update once done. Looking forward to seeing it freshly revamped!
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Many good points and Great examples
. Sorry you are in Chile. Great high altitude and ancient Bristlecone pines in many cases are at or near this ratio. Have also seen Limber and Whitebark pines in this group. Very humbling and thrilling to stand next to something so venerable.
. Sorry you are in Chile. Great high altitude and ancient Bristlecone pines in many cases are at or near this ratio. Have also seen Limber and Whitebark pines in this group. Very humbling and thrilling to stand next to something so venerable.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
That's what I want my trees to look like. I see enough regular trees in a week to more than get my fill of them.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
Many good points and Great examples
I agree with everything you said about seeing the bristlecones and walking Methuslah Grove. I used to do field work in the White/Inyo mountains and I visited them lots of times. But you knew I'd check the sizes - let's see:
The Patriarch Tree. H/W = 2.82
Maybe Methuslah (it's location is secret). H/W = 4.44
Another awesome bristlecone. H/W = 5.13 - this one is close, but needs to be taller to make the cut.
Another awesome bristlecone. H/W = 7.89. If we cut off that top jin it might be perfect.
Another awesome bristlecone (the one on the right). H/W = 5.67. This one might be close enough to declare it a winner. The one on the left though is nowhere close. H/W = 4.06.
So there you go - there are at least some bristlecones that have height/width ratios approaching 6. I found one close anyway before I got bored. So there are probably more. Most of what I found had H/W ratios much less than 6 though, including some of the most famous trees in the park.
