Finished bonsai - Nothing to do?

Adair M · Jul 25, 2016

Lol, John, my statements are somewhat contradictory! It's like everything in bonsai: "It depends"!

Let me clarify: once the tree is refined and balanced, it takes a small amount of work periodically to maintain. But trees are always growing, and they will need to be cut back, old wire removed, new wire placed, to rejuvenate the design. Due to the amount of ramification most refined trees have, this rejuvenation is usually a significant effort. The frequency of the rejuvenation required is largely species defendant. The faster growing species needing work more often than slower growing ones.

Adair M · Jul 25, 2016

Vance Wood said:
I

I've thought long and hard about this and your attitude about it. Here is my take. Wben I want a lesson I will look at the instructional videos and learn the finer points of wiring, pruning, and BSing or final design. I have a musical background in Classical Guitar and Lute. Both instruments are very demanding in technique etc. But there is nothing like hearing the instrument being played by a true master. There is a thing called inspiration. Certainly, if your experience is below a certain level understanding some of the things demonstrated in the styling refining video will be lost on you. However to relegate these demos to bullshit and a joke really does nothing more than expose your lack of knowledge. Do you have a clue how much is involved in producing a video of this qualioty??

Wow!! Vance, you play Classical Guitar?

I played in High School, and college. I even took a couple classes with the Music Department. Like "one hour classes". I wasn't a music major or anything, I played for my own enjoyment. But I did have to play for a jury at the end of the semester! Villa-Lobos, Bach, Sor, those guys...

I haven't played in years. But the other day, I was thinking I should dust off the guitar and start playing again!

Vance Wood · Jul 25, 2016

I played the guitar for many years and switched to the Lute. What wonderful instrument with wonderful music. As fate and time would have it due to my exposure to agent Orange and wounds I received in Viet Nam catching up with me I can no longer feel my finger tips well enough to play at the level I was used to. I was a music major. Did not finish, ran out of money and the GI bill ran out.

Adair M · Jul 25, 2016

Sorry to hear about the effects of Agent Orange.

My daughter is a dual Music Major. French Horn performance and Midic Theory.

She spent two years at Laurence University at the Conservatory if Mudic there. Then transferred back to UGA.

Way back in the day, I got to meet Chtistopher Parkening backstage after one of his live performances. Shook his hand. And, wow! The strength in his right hand was amazing. And, no, he wasn't a "hand crusher" kind of guy. But you could feel the strength. I'm sure his left hand would have been just as strong. That was at the peak of his career when he was recording for Angel. His technical skills were unsurpassed!

Vance Wood · Jul 25, 2016

A very good friend of mine back when I first moved to Iowa was a student of his. Paul Dudly Willson III. The best man at my wedding and I played at his.

MichaelS · Jul 25, 2016

"sorce

,

I understand how you are feeling, and that you are being genuine, not mean, and as patient as possible....

sorce, you're going to give me cavities!

MichaelS · Jul 25, 2016

"Adair M,

The purpose of this post was to remind people that trees that have been established do require work to maintain and refresh their styling. They don't just "sit on the bench" and look good all by themselves.

Lol!!!

Yep I understood that and I should have pointed out that fact.

MichaelS · Jul 25, 2016

Vance Wood,

However to relegate these demos to bullshit and a joke really does nothing more than expose your lack of knowledge.

Well Vance, I once again disagree with your assessment. I actually do have some knowledge of the time and skill required to perform such a complete refinement of a tree even if I have never worked on such a large thing before.
I do stand by my point that these ( and especially this) video as doing ABSOLUTELY nothing more than demonstrate the mastery and finesse of the demonstrator. They are completely non-instructive and should be made to be shown as such.
They will teach you as much about bonsai as the Karate Kid....Actually even less.

Do you have a clue how much is involved in producing a video of this qualioty??

And what has that to do with the price of fish?

Vance Wood · Jul 25, 2016

MichaelS wrote: They are completely non-instructive and should be made to be shown as such. I disagree 100% with you on this. Any time you can show a process being done and completed with the results as they are you can in a sense have an invitation into the mind of a master and the thinking processes that produce the kind of results achieved. You can't teach that kind of thing you can only show it just like a master Guitarist can only demonstrate his skill he cannot teach it beyond technique. Every thing else is the work of inspiration. The remark about the video is an address toward your alleged BS quality of this process.

sorce · Jul 25, 2016

MichaelS said:
,

sorce, you're going to give me cavities!

You know I don't know what the fuck that means! But yes, I like it anyway.....

For whoever it was talking shit about me liking everything!

Leave the names in the quotes...
Call em out!

......................................

Gotta stay zipped for now.

Sorce

MichaelS · Jul 25, 2016

sorce said:
You know I don't know what the fuck that means! But yes, I like it anyway.....

For whoever it was talking shit about me liking everything!

Leave the names in the quotes...
Call em out!

......................................

Gotta stay zipped for now.

Sorce

It means your too sweet

Adair M · Jul 25, 2016

MichaelS said:
I do stand by my point that these ( and especially this) video as doing ABSOLUTELY nothing more than demonstrate the mastery and finesse of the demonstrator. They are completely non-instructive and should be made to be shown as such.
They will teach you as much about bonsai as the Karate Kid....Actually even less.

Well, MichaelS, I have to disagree with you a bit here.

I enjoyed watching Bjorn wire. Even speeded up. I saw him doing something differently than I do, and while I don't know if I will try it or not, it was interesting. At least to me!

It was how he was wiring the major lower branches. I've been taught to set the anchor, wire one branch 1 1/2 to 2 turns, then wire the other branch to the end, or however far I'm taking that piece of wire. When complete, go back to the first branch and finish it.

Well, Bjorn did it a little differently. He started with an anchor, then did the first branch 1 1/2 to 2 turns and then wired the 2nd branch. But he didn't go back to finish the first branch. He left the wire hanging out. He then did something similiar with another wire. Now two wires hanging! He concentrated on completing what I'm calling the second branch. Then, once he was done wiring the entire branch and pad, he then shifted over to the loose wires, finished applying those and others to finish that branch.

Doing it this way allowed him to concentrate completing one branch at a time. Rather than jumping back and forth as much as the way I would have.

I've never done it that way. Would it be better if I did? I don't know. I might try it to see if it works for me. I like the idea of being able to focus all my attention to one area, knowing I will go back and complete the wiring on the "loose ends" later.

MichaelS · Jul 25, 2016

Adair M said:
Well, MichaelS, I have to disagree with you a bit here.

I enjoyed watching Bjorn wire. Even speeded up. I saw him doing something differently than I do, and while I don't know if I will try it or not, it was interesting. At least to me!

It was how he was wiring the major lower branches. I've been taught to set the anchor, wire one branch 1 1/2 to 2 turns, then wire the other branch to the end, or however far I'm taking that piece of wire. When complete, go back to the first branch and finish it.

Well, Bjorn did it a little differently. He started with an anchor, then did the first branch 1 1/2 to 2 turns and then wired the 2nd branch. But he didn't go back to finish the first branch. He left the wire hanging out. He then did something similiar with another wire. Now two wires hanging! He concentrated on completing what I'm calling the second branch. Then, once he was done wiring the entire branch and pad, he then shifted over to the loose wires, finished applying those and others to finish that branch.

Doing it this way allowed him to concentrate completing one branch at a time. Rather than jumping back and forth as much as the way I would have.

I've never done it that way. Would it be better if I did? I don't know. I might try it to see if it works for me. I like the idea of being able to focus all my attention to one area, knowing I will go back and complete the wiring on the "loose ends" later.

Adair, you should be able to wire with both hands at the same time clockwise with the left and counter clockwise with the right with the branches being supported between the toes of left and right feet while trimming buds with a sharp knife between your teeth!
But yeah that is an efficient way to wire if you're in a hurry and have much to do like Bjorn. But who has trees like that?

Adair M · Jul 25, 2016

I don't have a Tosho, but I have a JBP that needs similiar treatment and wiring:

And, I'm sorry, I don't have the flexibility to use my toes while working bonsai, but I do the best I can:

Anthony · Jul 26, 2016

Sifu,

looks like you are playing the JBpine, hee hee - can't wait to get old bark like that.

I made the Kimura comment for the Newbees, I have watched folk spend a lot of money on Bonsai, only to try and sell back, because
they didn't realise, that the trees they are watching are often someone elses and how silly it can all become with the prizes/exhibitions.

Seriously, you didn't grow it, you don't maintain it, but you want recognition????????????????????????????

Like saying you built a house, when you know you have not even laid a single brick.
Just paid for it.
Be honest, it isn't a real achievement, and neither is the Bonsai.

As this conversation goes ---------- confusing.

When I look at videos, I look for the back of the tree.
Good Day
Anthony

jomawa · Jul 26, 2016

Ok @Adair M, my half cent worth as a learning bnutter. Watched Bjorn whack that tree. Thought while watching that it sure would be nice to know why he is doing what he is doing.

Then @MichaelS, I watched Kenichi whack his tree and thought this is kinda sorta maybe better, but not, because I couldn't understand a thing he was saying (diff language), even though he seemed to be describing freely and with enthusiasm why and what he was doing.

So I quit reading about three quarters through the second page of this semantic pissing contest to share my thoughts. And yes, like the poster who spoke with animosity of getting info for free, I am one who is in this "free" bnut forum trying to get bonsai info for a reasonable price, to do my own bonsai, and not stoop to buying someone else's nearly completed work that I can take the accolades for.

Maybe I got the OP's point, a tree ain't done till it's dead, (not sure). But for bnut sake, aren't there better video examples that also explain the fine points of bonsai? Just asking (and wishing).

Vance Wood · Jul 26, 2016

jomawa said:
Ok @Adair M, my half cent worth as a learning bnutter. Watched Bjorn whack that tree. Thought while watching that it sure would be nice to know why he is doing what he is doing.

Then @MichaelS, I watched Kenichi whack his tree and thought this is kinda sorta maybe better, but not, because I couldn't understand a thing he was saying (diff language), even though he seemed to be describing freely and with enthusiasm why and what he was doing.

So I quit reading about three quarters through the second page of this semantic pissing contest to share my thoughts. And yes, like the poster who spoke with animosity of getting info for free, I am one who is in this "free" bnut forum trying to get bonsai info for a reasonable price, to do my own bonsai, and not stoop to buying someone else's nearly completed work that I can take the accolades for.

Maybe I got the OP's point, a tree ain't done till it's dead, (not sure). But for bnut sake, aren't there better video examples that also explain the fine points of bonsai? Just asking (and wishing).

You may not realize it now but watching videos of this level will improve your bonsai far more than complaining about how little videos like this can help.

jeanluc83 · Jul 26, 2016

MichaelS said:
I do stand by my point that these ( and especially this) video as doing ABSOLUTELY nothing more than demonstrate the mastery and finesse of the demonstrator. They are completely non-instructive and should be made to be shown as such.

Sometimes the intent is not to be instructive but to be entertaining. If you want to know technique there are a million videos and blogs about technique. It is something completely different to see someone work that has complete mastery over the technique.

To go back to the guitar example, have you ever gone to a concert? At the end of the concert did you complain that it was worthless because you didn't learn anything about how to play a guitar? No because you were there to be entertained.

It is not often that you see bonsai preformed on a high level. I feel that videos like this are intended as inspiration on what you could do if you are willing to spend the time to learn.

rockm · Jul 26, 2016

jomawa said:
Ok @Adair M, my half cent worth as a learning bnutter. Watched Bjorn whack that tree. Thought while watching that it sure would be nice to know why he is doing what he is doing.

Then @MichaelS, I watched Kenichi whack his tree and thought this is kinda sorta maybe better, but not, because I couldn't understand a thing he was saying (diff language), even though he seemed to be describing freely and with enthusiasm why and what he was doing.

So I quit reading about three quarters through the second page of this semantic pissing contest to share my thoughts. And yes, like the poster who spoke with animosity of getting info for free, I am one who is in this "free" bnut forum trying to get bonsai info for a reasonable price, to do my own bonsai, and not stoop to buying someone else's nearly completed work that I can take the accolades for.

Maybe I got the OP's point, a tree ain't done till it's dead, (not sure). But for bnut sake, aren't there better video examples that also explain the fine points of bonsai? Just asking (and wishing).

Jeez, this stereotype of people buying bonsai to "take the accolades" is a load of shit. Some do, sure, but most don't. I know of several owners who have spectacular imported azaleas or extremely fine collected stock (that they've worked themselves). They don't exhibit. They don't even go to club meetings. They do, however, make a point of taking classes with experts to learn how to work what they have. The azalea owner goes to Japan every year to work with azalea bonsai producers. They import their own azalea bonsai too. Yeah, it's expensive. Their money, their time...spare the moral indignation.

The person with the azaleas, however, doesn't really give a shit about what you think. They're working with plants that most of us will never have the opportunity to even see. They're learning the finer points of how to manage azaleas (And if you think that's an easy thing, you've never done it).

Which brings us to the bottom line. Why the "stoop to buying," "I am better because I DO IT MYSELF" silliness? The idea that a bonsai has to belong to its original "owner" it's entire life is curiously western and mostly childish. If you've got any talent or ability, "your" trees will outlive you. What happens then? Do you just let them die? Do they become someone else's?, or are we not worthy of your stupefying talents? This silly idea keeps American bonsai at an intermediate level and cramps what "owners" can do with their trees. In Japan, trees have gone through sometimes dozens of owners. Each adding their ideas onto trees to make them what they are. This takes decades, in some cases centuries. One "owner?" yeah, right...

coh · Jul 26, 2016

rockm said:
Jeez, this stereotype of people buying bonsai to "take the accolades" is a load of shit. Some do, sure, but most don't. I know of several owners who have spectacular imported azaleas or extremely fine collected stock (that they've worked themselves). They don't exhibit. They don't even go to club meetings. They do, however, make a point of taking classes with experts to learn how to work what they have. The azalea owner goes to Japan every year to work with azalea bonsai producers. They import their own azalea bonsai too. Yeah, it's expensive. Their money, their time...spare the moral indignation.

The person with the azaleas, however, doesn't really give a shit about what you think. They're working with plants that most of us will never have the opportunity to even see. They're learning the finer points of how to manage azaleas (And if you think that's an easy thing, you've never done it).

Which brings us to the bottom line. Why the "stoop to buying," "I am better because I DO IT MYSELF" silliness? The idea that a bonsai has to belong to its original "owner" it's entire life is curiously western and mostly childish. If you've got any talent or ability, "your" trees will outlive you. What happens then? Do you just let them die? Do they become someone else's?, or are we not worthy of your stupefying talents? This silly idea keeps American bonsai at an intermediate level and cramps what "owners" can do with their trees. In Japan, trees have gone through sometimes dozens of owners. Each adding their ideas onto trees to make them what they are. This takes decades, in some cases centuries. One "owner?" yeah, right...

Right on. That was one of the dumbest lines I've read here in a long time.

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