big black pune, wich front to choose

DirkvanDreven

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this is a black pine that was in an earlier stage commented on by Adair M. on another forum. Adair commented in his kind way on reverse taper, bar branches, spoke branches. Probably he also commented on my wiring.
After a good while I came to the conclusion that most, if not all, of his remarks were correct.

The first picture is the tree in april this year, after a first styling in 2015, on this tree that might not have been ready to work on. that is probably why my teacher didn't want to remove too much branches.

During a workshop with Taiga Urushibata more branches were removed. That is, Taiga made me cut off all branches that I thought were unnecessary. encouraging me in the progress by saying 'be brave! be brave!'.

the second pic is from right after the workshop.
2016-04-11 Before Workshop Taiga (1).JPG 2016-05-28 how it is now.JPG 2016-04-11 Before Workshop Taiga (1).JPG 2016-05-28 how it is now.JPG
 

DirkvanDreven

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After cleaning up the tree last month I was shown another possible front for this tree.
In my first choice for the front the flow of the tree was from left to right, wich feels natural.

In the first pic the tree after cleaning up with the first choice front.
The other option has the advantage of the less obvious reverse taper and a great positioned 'sashi eda'. (is that character branche in English? )
The sashi eda when choosing the other front is obscured by the sashi eda in the new position, so I'm afraid it must be removed.
With the new front the top must be regrown.

I flipped the last picture so the movement of the tree go3s from left to right again. to bad you can only di that with pictures!
2016-09-24 (4) (Medium).jpg 2016-10-02 (1).jpg 2016-10-02 (7) gespiegeld.jpg
 

petegreg

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Nice and healthy JBP, really usable from more views. One thing that might help you - you will see what you will find under the soil level, how the nebari looks.
 

Adair M

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Dirk, I rather like the middle picture with the tree moving left. It's interesting... I've noticed we tend to have a propensity to style trees with movement to the right! I have honk it has to do with right handedness.

Just a guess.

Anyway, go ahead and remove the bark from the jibbed branch stubs. This will make them thinner, which makes the trunk look thicker.

Your trunk is awkward. There's little taper, but it feels too heavy to be an effective literati. Still, it seems to me to be "long and thin", so the most effective way to style is by keeping the branches relatively short and foliage close to the trunk.

It appears you are trying to do just that. I see a big improvement from the first major cutback to the current styling.

The second front is better because to my eye there are fewer branches coming from the insides of curves. With a few years of decandling, the branches will start to make nice pads.

Next spring, begin to work on that rootball and start growing a flat root system. I would start with a grow box rather than a bonsai pot for a couple years.
 

0soyoung

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Your trunk is awkward. There's little taper, but it feels too heavy to be an effective literati.
I agree.
Still, it seems to me to be "long and thin", so the most effective way to style is by keeping the branches relatively short and foliage close to the trunk.
Maybe. However, I think having foliage obscure much of the midsection is an effective way to disguise the trunk's defects - one is directed to see the lower trunk and its bark (the focal point), then sees nice foliage (maybe another glimpse and more foliage), then a thinner top trunk - gives the impression that it does taper.
 
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Dirk, I rather like the middle picture with the tree moving left. It's interesting... I've noticed we tend to have a propensity to style trees with movement to the right! I have honk it has to do with right handedness.

Just a guess.
I might be totally wrong but this is how i think about it. Most people read from left to right. We tend to look at most things this way. When looking at a tree moving to the right, the first thing we notice is the trunk-base and visually climb up until we see the green. That is on trees with bigger or interesting trunks. When the focus of a tree is on the green mass (we all like greens since it is living and more colorful), we tend to look at the green and from there our eyes follow a diffirent path, the trunk and base are less important. It is important to put the green as close to the focal point of your tree as possible. The guideline of making a tree as compact as you can does help a lot.
In addition when a tree is moving to the left AND the foliage mass is big we do see the green first because it is on the left side, and it is accentuated more because it is a focal point. That is one of the reasons that somehow trees seem out of balance when you "mirror" an image. On an other forum we did a topic on that. Masterpieces flip overs...

The discussion of "sashi-eda" is to difficult for me. I see a future for this tree with much less branches. If you wish to use the lowest branch as a character branch (not sure what branch you envision), the angle must be changed. "Brake" it ad the starting point. However i do not think this branch is essential in the design and so for me it is certainly not a character branch.

Do not change the tree to much at a time. Wait until you and the tree are ready.
 
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DirkvanDreven

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most important branche is first (only) branche on the left. foliage on the first branche on the right is to far from the trunk. I mightvgrow a new tree from the small shoot directly under the first branche on the right. might also try to graft it.

@Adair M , thanks for your comments. much appreciated! I've difficulties with changing my mind on the front of this tree as since I got this tree in 2013 i was certainvthe first front was my front.

I planned on keeping the tree in the pot it is in for another year. the trunk is wider just below the surface of the soil. last year at the widest point of the trunk small roots were emerging. That is exactly where I want roots to emerge from the trunk.
Besides, it is growing well in this pot I think I'll keep it in for another year.

After that a custom build growbox is a good idea. No idea how the roots are developed and what size a pot should have.
 

DirkvanDreven

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Next spring, begin to work on that rootball and start growing a flat root system. I would start with a grow box rather than a bonsai pot for a couple years.

@Adair M: Initially I didn't feel like repotting this tree next spring. But I'm getting more and more curious about how the roots are develloping, if at all.
You prefer a growbox above a (little oversized) bonsaipot?
could this be a growbox like the one i made for my Mugo pine?FB_IMG_1476552895525.jpg FB_IMG_1476552949260.jpg
 

Adair M

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just.wing.it

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@Adair M: Initially I didn't feel like repotting this tree next spring. But I'm getting more and more curious about how the roots are develloping, if at all.
You prefer a growbox above a (little oversized) bonsaipot?
could this be a growbox like the one i made for my Mugo pine?View attachment 124493 View attachment 124494
Ooooooooo, aaaaahhhhh....
Beautiful box!
Where did you find a mugo like that?
 

DirkvanDreven

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Ooooooooo, aaaaahhhhh....
Beautiful box!
Where did you find a mugo like that?

In my mother in law's garden. So you see, its very important to allways be on speaking terms with your mother in law!
My father in law planted this as a small pine (in fact there were two) some forty years ago.
 

Adair M

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Some wiring done today. Some branches still need to be pulled down. If backbudding is strong enough several branches will be shortened.
Finally it begins to look like a decent tree!
Looking good!

You might want to pull the lowest left branch down using a guy wire.

Now get it in a grow box. It looks nice and healthy, and I bet it will do very well for you!
 
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The tree is off for a nice start. There are some branches where the first section is really straight. It doesn't mach with the movement of the tree. I agree that the lower left branch can be lowered more. When the tree has developed some more i think the lower 3 branches might come off. Nice work
 

DirkvanDreven

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Looking good!

You might want to pull the lowest left branch down using a guy wire.

Now get it in a grow box. It looks nice and healthy, and I bet it will do very well for you!

Lowest branche can't be lowered with a guy wire. A guy wire would pull a hook in it. The branche will be cut just above it so that it partially becomes undetached from the trunk and can be lowered. Never seen this technique. Excited and a bit worried.

My teacher says no to repotting this spring. He wants to wait another year.
 

Adair M

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Ah! So he wants to do Fig 8:

IMG_0128.JPG

It's a valid technique. Hammer a Little Rock in the V to help keep it in position.

I noticed you've been using copper. That's good, but it looks a little undersized on the main branches.

The technique I'd recommend isn't Fig 8. It doesn't look like that's required. Instead I'd do this:

IMG_2075.JPG

Fig 16. Tie a piece of rebar to the bottom of the branch. Be sure to leave a 1/2 inch gap between the end of the rebar and the trunk so it can lower. The rebar keeps the branch straight and not make a rainbow. Be sure to pad where you tie the rebar. The trick is to pull the rebar down, not the branch.
 
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