In-Ground Pine Preperation

Relknes

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Hi, this is my first post on the forums.

I have 4 pine trees that I planted 8 years ago (2 year old seedlings at the time) that I am trying to develop into large bonsai. To get a thick trunk, I have basically left them alone since planting them. They are now getting to the point where I am going to do my first major work on them. I will be doing a trunk chop this fall, turning the old trunk into the first branch and wiring a low branch into position to become the new leader. I plan on about 8-10 more years of development before moving them into training pots, probably involving 2 more trunk chops to develop taper.

My question is mostly about the roots. How should I prepare these trees over the next 6-8 years so that they have a root system that can withstand the transition to a training pot?

I assume the answer will involve multiple stages of root pruning, but I haven't been able to find a lot of info about it. There is a lot of info on collecting yamadori, where you don't usually have so much time to prepare the tree, and on transplanting established garden trees where the trees are not really being worked in other ways.

So, should I:

A) Root prune when I do the trunk chops
Or
B) Root prune 1-2 years after the trunk chops

And as a follow up, should I:

A) Start root pruning far from the trunk and gradually reduce the radius with each pruning
Or
B) Prune to the size of the final root ball the first time and keep pruning at that same point

Thanks for your time.
 

0soyoung

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One option is to try these variations yourself
2 x 2level treatments = 4 combinations/treatments
4 trees --> 1 tree per treatment

Specifically (by randomly assigned tree numbers)
  1. root prune when you do the trunk chops & start root pruning far from the trunk and gradually reduce the radius with each pruning
  2. root prune when you do the trunk chops & prune to the size of the final root ball the first time and keep pruning at that same point
  3. root prune 1-2 years after the trunk chops & start root pruning far from the trunk and gradually reduce the radius with each pruning
  4. root prune 1-2 years after the trunk chops & prune to the size of the final root ball the first time and keep pruning at that same point
If you had several trees (say 3 to 5 or more) in each cell (1 thru 4) you would have a better experimental design where you would likely be able to discern whether the differences in results are due to the treatments you applied or not (it is quite possible that there is more variation in the trees than in the effects of your treatments, for example; also, it could result just because of where each is planted instead).
 

Adair M

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We have too many variables, and not enough information to give any kind of meaningful advice.

A picture or two of the grove would be helpful. What kind of soil are they in? How tall are they? What's the trunk caliper? How much sun do they get? Fertilizer?
 

Relknes

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I will try to get some pictures this weekend when I go up to see them. (They are planted at a family cabin about 2 hours from my house)
They are in a clay-heavy soil, on a hill overlooking a lake, with full sun. They are P Resinosa, which grows well in those conditions. I have not fertilized them. We have planted several hundred thousand trees on the property over the years for timber purposes and these have been treated, so far, exactly like the other trees we plant. They are about 7 feet tall, with a base a bit over 3 inches in diameter.
The Norway Pine (Pinus Resinosa) is our state tree, and I have wanted to create a bonsai out of one for years. They have beautiful bark. The main reasons they have never been cultivated as bonsai, as far as I can tell, is that they have very long needles (like 6-7 inches) that don't respond well to traditional needle reduction techniques, so a bonsai will have to have some size to it in order to look good, and they cannot be propagated from cuttings or air layering techniques. That means growing an untested species from seed (or seedling) into a large bonsai, which will probably take 25-30 years in total.
It also means there is little or no species specific information out there, because no one has wanted to put in that sort of time into an untested species.
So, yeah, I'm kinda tilting at windmills here...
But, hey, I've got my junipers to keep me company while I experiment.
I would love to set aside a few more trees from the grove to train as bonsai so that I could try different things with different batches, say 3 trees for each method. I am a bit intimidated by the idea of potentially having 12 large bonsai, however, since I don't have the space for that many trees, so I don't think that's an option.
 

Adair M

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Well..,

I did a bit of research. It seems the needles are very fragile, and break if bent. If you mess with tree very much (like wire it) you are likely to have lots of broken needles.

They self prune. Old low branches get shaded out and fall off. Branches that live tend to get long and spindly. Until they fall off. They don't keep interior foliage.

They grow very upright. With long thin trunks, and foliage only at the top.

You say the needles don't reduce. It appears they are 3 to 6 inches long.

If you were to try to use one for bonsai, find a specimen that naturally has shorter needles all over. You might get lucky and find one that has shorter needles.

Otherwise...

I would choose another species of tree. Get a dozen Scots pines, or even Mugo, and plant them in the ground. You would have a MUCH better chance for success.
 

Wilson

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I have one that I have been growing as a niwaki (garden tree) and have been able to get it to trunk up, without getting to tall. I think as you mentioned, you will need to have an XL sized bonsai. If you could get it to a 4' height, it could be a fun project. It will help to if you are working on your lower branches now, to not have to start from scratch. Good luck!
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@Relknes - nice, I once had a few seedling Pinus resinosa, for a number of years. Got bored with them and let them go. They developed too many faults for me to feel they were worth the trouble. I wasn't as knowledgeable about bonsai at that time, now I would only tackle P resinosa if I knew I had the time to do the yearly work on them that I now understand needs to be done. For what it is worth, I prefer their other ''common name'', American Red Pine, calling them Norway pines is confusing, because they are strictly a North American native species, though they have been used in forestry projects elsewhere in the word. I agree they have wonderful bark. I have some on the family owned farm in SW Michigan, and in spring, their pollen is bright red, which was startling to see. Totally cool but not a useful trait for bonsai.

Honestly, I think P. resinosa could make a decent medium to large bonsai, but if your trees are already 7 feet tall and 3 inches in diameter and you haven't done anything, the "ship may have already sailed" on turning them into bonsai.

I want to compliment you on "getting it", many do not actually follow through on the idea that you have to build a thick trunk first. as the first goal of growing a bonsai from scratch.

Field growing in general, root management is difficult. Most field grown trees are species that can be rooted from cuttings, meaning they are capable of regenerating a whole new root system when they are collected from the field. With pines that do not regenerate roots easily, they must have roots pruned, or possibly even be dug up, root pruned and replanted every 4 to 5 years to do root work to keep fine feeder roots close enough to the trunk so that they will fit in a bonsai pot when they are finally ready for a smaller pot. For best results I suggest no pruning of branches 6 months before and 12 months after digging up, root pruning and replanting. With single flush pines, the method most likely to not harm the tree is to either work the roots or work the branches, but never do both within a 12 month period. One insult only in any 12 month period. Note I did not say "in one year" because a hard prune in autumn 2015 and repotting in spring of 2016 is less than 6 months between "insults". Count the months, trees need time to recover, and root pruning is the most stressful activity we subject our trees to. Normally a tree in the wild will never have to deal with any major root disturbance at all, ever. Root pruning can be quite traumatic to a tree.

Branch management for pines in field development is critical. As you have seen, you need the leader to get to 7 feet to get a 3 inch diameter trunk. The trick with pines is you need to keep the lowest branches healthy, with needles still close to the trunk, in order to have branches to choose from when you style your tree. For pines, every year you prune back the lower branches, to keep them short and bushy, you remove the medium height branches to prevent them from shading out the low branches. You want your lowest branches to be in full sun all day. You let the leader grow long to thicken the trunk. A properly field grown pine for bonsai looks like a weird ball of foliage at ground level, a long bare stalk and a big explosion of foliage way up in the air. @Adair M has some good photos of his field grown pines that would illustrate this nicely.

All may not be lost. Do these field pines still have branches with needles within 24 inches of the ground? If yes, you might be able to recover these for bonsai use. If not, then these are only good for landscape trees, niwaki or timber production. Generally for a finished tree, first branch is at 1/4th to 1/2 the total height, with the most common being at about 1/3rd the total height. So a first branch at 24 inches suggest the finished height will be somewhere between 4 and 6 feet tall. And a bonsai between 4 and 6 feet tall is at the larger end of the spectrum of bonsai sizes common to see in the USA.

In my experience P resinosa is a single flush of growth pine. This means training will be more like Pinus sylvestris or Pinus nigra, rather than like Pinus thunbergii. Its growth pattern is different from both Japanese black pine and Japanese white pine, so ignore all suggestion about when to do what from bonsai sites about those two species. Look specifically for articles about single flush pines. Pinus mugo is a single flush pine also, and Vance Wood has a number of good articles on this site, on how he grows his in Michigan. If you are in Michigan, I would consider using Vance's calendar for Mugo pines for when to do what to your Pinus resinosa. You are to some extent in uncharted waters with Pinus resinosa. So you will need to observe carefully how they respond to different things you do, take notes, and see what works, what doesn't and then let us know about how it went. (I'm at least curious).

About actually pruning your field pines, read these Japanese Black Pine articles on the Evergreen Gardenworks website. Brent Walston has written the best collection out there about growing trees from seed or nursery stock to the point where they are ready for their first bonsai styling. Remember his articles are about Japanese Black pines, which have two flushes of growth, so be conscious of the fact that your pines won't respond the same way, and you will need to find the Scotts pine articles & mugo articles to get a better idea about when to prune what. But Brent in his articles correctly talks about how to keep low branches healthy on pine seedlings being grown for bonsai. You do have it right, grow the trunk first. Brent follow up on that line of building a tree segment by segment from the ground up.

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/articles.htm

If you have no branches less than 24 inches from the ground, you might still be able to graft branches that low, but this note is too long for that discussion. Post photos and my fellow BNutters can give you ideas of where you are at in the process.

Enough typing for now, hope this helps. - Leo
 

Adair M

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@Relknes - nice, I once had a few seedling Pinus resinosa, for a number of years. Got bored with them and let them go. They developed too many faults for me to feel they were worth the trouble. I wasn't as knowledgeable about bonsai at that time, now I would only tackle P resinosa if I knew I had the time to do the yearly work on them that I now understand needs to be done. For what it is worth, I prefer their other ''common name'', American Red Pine, calling them Norway pines is confusing, because they are strictly a North American native species, though they have been used in forestry projects elsewhere in the word. I agree they have wonderful bark. I have some on the family owned farm in SW Michigan, and in spring, their pollen is bright red, which was startling to see. Totally cool but not a useful trait for bonsai.

Honestly, I think P. resinosa could make a decent medium to large bonsai, but if your trees are already 7 feet tall and 3 inches in diameter and you haven't done anything, the "ship may have already sailed" on turning them into bonsai.

I want to compliment you on "getting it", many do not actually follow through on the idea that you have to build a thick trunk first. as the first goal of growing a bonsai from scratch.

Field growing in general, root management is difficult. Most field grown trees are species that can be rooted from cuttings, meaning they are capable of regenerating a whole new root system when they are collected from the field. With pines that do not regenerate roots easily, they must have roots pruned, or possibly even be dug up, root pruned and replanted every 4 to 5 years to do root work to keep fine feeder roots close enough to the trunk so that they will fit in a bonsai pot when they are finally ready for a smaller pot. For best results I suggest no pruning of branches 6 months before and 12 months after digging up, root pruning and replanting. With single flush pines, the method most likely to not harm the tree is to either work the roots or work the branches, but never do both within a 12 month period. One insult only in any 12 month period. Note I did not say "in one year" because a hard prune in autumn 2015 and repotting in spring of 2016 is less than 6 months between "insults". Count the months, trees need time to recover, and root pruning is the most stressful activity we subject our trees to. Normally a tree in the wild will never have to deal with any major root disturbance at all, ever. Root pruning can be quite traumatic to a tree.

Branch management for pines in field development is critical. As you have seen, you need the leader to get to 7 feet to get a 3 inch diameter trunk. The trick with pines is you need to keep the lowest branches healthy, with needles still close to the trunk, in order to have branches to choose from when you style your tree. For pines, every year you prune back the lower branches, to keep them short and bushy, you remove the medium height branches to prevent them from shading out the low branches. You want your lowest branches to be in full sun all day. You let the leader grow long to thicken the trunk. A properly field grown pine for bonsai looks like a weird ball of foliage at ground level, a long bare stalk and a big explosion of foliage way up in the air. @Adair M has some good photos of his field grown pines that would illustrate this nicely.

All may not be lost. Do these field pines still have branches with needles within 24 inches of the ground? If yes, you might be able to recover these for bonsai use. If not, then these are only good for landscape trees, niwaki or timber production. Generally for a finished tree, first branch is at 1/4th to 1/2 the total height, with the most common being at about 1/3rd the total height. So a first branch at 24 inches suggest the finished height will be somewhere between 4 and 6 feet tall. And a bonsai between 4 and 6 feet tall is at the larger end of the spectrum of bonsai sizes common to see in the USA.

In my experience P resinosa is a single flush of growth pine. This means training will be more like Pinus sylvestris or Pinus nigra, rather than like Pinus thunbergii. Its growth pattern is different from both Japanese black pine and Japanese white pine, so ignore all suggestion about when to do what from bonsai sites about those two species. Look specifically for articles about single flush pines. Pinus mugo is a single flush pine also, and Vance Wood has a number of good articles on this site, on how he grows his in Michigan. If you are in Michigan, I would consider using Vance's calendar for Mugo pines for when to do what to your Pinus resinosa. You are to some extent in uncharted waters with Pinus resinosa. So you will need to observe carefully how they respond to different things you do, take notes, and see what works, what doesn't and then let us know about how it went. (I'm at least curious).

About actually pruning your field pines, read these Japanese Black Pine articles on the Evergreen Gardenworks website. Brent Walston has written the best collection out there about growing trees from seed or nursery stock to the point where they are ready for their first bonsai styling. Remember his articles are about Japanese Black pines, which have two flushes of growth, so be conscious of the fact that your pines won't respond the same way, and you will need to find the Scotts pine articles & mugo articles to get a better idea about when to prune what. But Brent in his articles correctly talks about how to keep low branches healthy on pine seedlings being grown for bonsai. You do have it right, grow the trunk first. Brent follow up on that line of building a tree segment by segment from the ground up.

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/articles.htm

If you have no branches less than 24 inches from the ground, you might still be able to graft branches that low, but this note is too long for that discussion. Post photos and my fellow BNutters can give you ideas of where you are at in the process.

Enough typing for now, hope this helps. - Leo
Leo, great post! Epic, actually!!!

I think it can be condensed into three words:

"Choose another tree"!

Lol!!!

No, seriously, if there are no low branches, they're likely not going to be suitable. If there are.... well, maybe they might work. For a big bonsai.
 

Relknes

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Thank you all for your input, and especially Leo, for a very useful and thorough post. I was a bit lost on where to look to find information on the care of Pinus Resinosa. I will start to look carefully at some articles on Mugo and Scotts Pine. I had tried finding articles on Austrian Pine, since that is the closest genetic relative and I have seen some of those as Bonsai (albeit rarely), but didn't have any luck.

Here is an example of the fields I am working from. There are trees in the field ranging from 3 to 60 years old.
Norway Pine Field 1.jpg

Only one of the 4 I had in mind are actually suitable, I think. It turns out that the long grasses were shading out some of the lowest branches, even on the younger trees. I am going to search through for a couple of younger ones with vigorous lower branches this winter to find more suitable candidates, both to start the training earlier and to make sure to cut back the long grasses a few times a year around them to keep vigor in those low branches.

Here is a picture of the one tree that I think could still work (front and back):
2016-10-10 Norway Pine 1 B.jpg 2016-10-10 Norway Pine 1 A.jpg

There are 5 healthy branches within about a foot of the ground. The trunk is closer to 2 inches at the base than 3 (thinner than the other three) but the fact that I had done some guy wiring (guy roping?) to add a little movement seems to have encouraged the lower branches while slowing it's overall growth.

I intend to sacrifice everything of the main trunk above that first foot or so eventually.

The main problem that I see is that the low branches, although very alive, have their needles out about a foot from the trunk. I guess I'll find out how well these things back bud...

Here is a close up of the lower trunk:
2016-10-10 Norway Pine 1 Lower Branches.jpg

Hopefully this is salvageable, despite the late start in training. Otherwise, it should still be a good test case for the younger ones I intend to develop. I can test out at least one method of root pruning: pruning 1/4 of the root system in the spring of any year that I won't be doing a trunk chop at a distance of 18 inches from the trunk. This would allow me to prune the entire root system twice over before collecting the tree in 10 years.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Nice, scenery looks a lot like the family's farm in SW Michigan.

You do have low branches, so not all is lost. If it were me, I'd do roots 100% the way around, and underneath when I do the root prune. If you do only one side, the tree may ''abandon'' roots that were pruned in favor of roots that were left undisturbed. The partial repot is for trees in pots. Root pruning at 18 inches from trunk is plenty big, you don't break up the ball inside the 18 inch circle, that will leave enough undisturbed. The grasses will help hold the sandy MI soil together.

To get back budding, you need sun on the woody parts you want back budding on. Completely remove the middle tiers of branches. Leave the top whorl and apex, and anything down low. It will take a year or twoo of full sun on low branches, but they should back but some.
 

Soldano666

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To get back budding, you need sun on the woody parts you want back budding on. Completely remove the middle tiers of branches. Leave the top whorl and apex, and anything down low. It will take a year or twoo of full sun on low branches, but they should back but some.
that solves the problem of about 100 scots I scouted this summer. Perhaps I'll dig some and leave some in the ground and apply this technique.
 

Relknes

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Thanks for your replies. I'll let you guys know how it turns out as things progress. It'll probably be a while before an update is warranted on this.
I guess the one question I have left (for this year, anyways) would be is it ok to remove the middle branches the same year as I do the full root-prune, or would that be "two insults" to the tree?
 

Vance Wood

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Yes provided the tree is healthy. The one insult per season rule is often an old wives tale, though it depends on the tree and the extent of the insult.
 
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