For Sifu

PiñonJ · Oct 13, 2016

Adair M said:
No, Anthony, that is not what I what I would call a shallow pot!

First, the tape measure obscured it, so I can't really see it!

Second, the soil is mounded! Which is poor technique. The tree should be placed soil that the surface of the soil is flat, with only the nebari higher than the rim.

Here are some examples of what you should be striving for:

View attachment 119638

The tree above is owned by a friend who grows mostly deciduous trees. He keeps it in this pot all the time. The height of the pot is about the same as the caliper of the tree. The soil surface is flat, no mounding.

Here are some other examples:

View attachment 119639

The tree above does have a bit of mounding. The pot is very shallow.

View attachment 119641

View attachment 119642

These are just a couple of examples I had saved on my phone. But they show trees planted in pots which many would consider to be "trays" rather than "pots". And most would think there's little water holding capacity in these flatter pots, but as Scott has shown us, more water can be retained in soil configured in a broad flat shape rather than in a taller more cubical shape.

Ryan Neil teaches "contouring" of the soil from the trunk down to the edge of the pot, leaving space for a top dressing which will grow a healthy lawn of moss. The top dressing allows for prolific growth of surface roots. He teaches contouring as an aesthetic value. Many of his trees have mounds, due to limitations in reducing the root mass of yamadori, as you have alluded to, but almost all of his trees have some degree of soil contour. The same is true of three out of the four trees you posted as examples. Only one of the four has a truly flat surface. The other three have a sloped soil surface. I think it is partly a matter of semantics.

Adair M · Oct 13, 2016

PiñonJ said:
Ryan Neil teaches "contouring" of the soil from the trunk down to the edge of the pot, leaving space for a top dressing which will grow a healthy lawn of moss. The top dressing allows for prolific growth of surface roots. He teaches contouring as an aesthetic value. Many of his trees have mounds, due to limitations in reducing the root mass of yamadori, as you have alluded to, but almost all of his trees have some degree of soil contour. The same is true of three out of the four trees you posted as examples. Only one of the four has a truly flat surface. The other three have a sloped soil surface. I think it is partly a matter of semantics.

My objective with the examples I posted were to show pots that are much broader than Anthony's pot. Not necessarily to show a perfectly flat soil surface. Which, by the way, is probably flat when you take away the moss.

When you shape the root ball when you repot, yes, you should shape it do that it slopes gently down from the nebari to the edge of the rootball. But when you place the rootball in the pot, the ideal position is such that only the nebari is above the rim. All the soil is below the rim. Once the rootball is tied in, fresh soil is then added. Some of it will cover the slopes of the rootball, thus making it flat once again. When complete, there should be about 1/4 inch of rim above the soil. That's so that the moss can be added for showing, and it would still be at rim level, not mounded above.

Adair M · Oct 13, 2016

Here are a few pics I pulled off Ryan's webpage:

Those all look pretty darn flat to me!

Does he have a few that are mounded? Yes, he does. They are in very small pots. But the vast majority are pretty flat.

YukiShiro · Oct 14, 2016

So guys everything I got from this thread(aka what Adair has taught us) is that it is a health issue(not life and death but better for the tree) and an issue with watering(aka washing away the siol) and has not much to do with aesthetics and yet everyone argues from a aesthetic standpoint... I don't get it....

just as a side note something namhi said really made me laugh... what was it "there is no right or wrong way to do bonsai"? good luck dude...you will learn the hard way...

sorce · Oct 14, 2016

@YukiShiro

EXACTLY!

All of it.

Understanding all (mostly wireme's) reasons for mounding temporarily....

To see one in a show as such is more or less "cheating".
As I don't remember the translation being "tree (mostly) in tray".

The point is for it to FIT in the the pot!

There is a large trunked tree in the Nationals Video that is sloped from left to right, it works with the image of the tree.

Don't know if that was the intention....but it worked.

Thoughts?

Anyway....

The point of keeping good roots close to the trunk is good enough for me.

Anything else is completely counterproductive.

Sorce

M. Frary · Oct 14, 2016

YukiShiro said:
just as a side note something namhi said really made me laugh... what was it "there is no right or wrong way to do bonsai"? good luck dude...you will learn the hard way...

Me too. Because we've heard that one before.

Adair M · Oct 14, 2016

While there are certainly "wrong ways"...

Let's also say there are "better ways".

I have been fortunate to be able to study with people who make some the best bonsai in the world. And they've shown me many "better ways". Rather than argue with them, I choose to incorporate them into my own bonsai.

And my bonsai are now quantum leaps better for it!

Anthony · Oct 14, 2016

I think the is if you can preserve Health and can still create new Designs, then you can say - no right or wrong ........

What may be distressing some is the repetitive nature of Japanese images. Not everyone wants to have - the look.

Plus, what we were told a few years ago was big trunk in shallow pot, makes trunk look bigger, and it is different.
Then others /followers jumped in, and it became a massive repetition, which horrifies the few and independent thinkers.

In our climate with wind and sun, I don't know if shallow containers hold that much more water, but I do know for
Exhibition, Design comes it so you don't end up with a room of clones [ bonsai ] .
After showing, the tree can be replaced in a Healthy situation.

As I stated before, Western philosophy, individuals, Eastern tends more to pack mentality.
Isn't Bonsai wunnerful.
Good Day
Anthony

namnhi · Oct 14, 2016

just as a side note something namhi said really made me laugh... what was it "there is no right or wrong way to do bonsai"? good luck dude...you will learn the hard way...[/QUOTE said:
Thanks. I will need a lot of it. I agree with Anthony. If you can keep your tree healthy and look at best as it can be... Does it matter if it is mound or not. Am also using Turface and chemical fertilizer. They are doing just fine!

YukiShiro · Oct 14, 2016

O Wei.....you completely missed my point. the line you quoted had nothing to do with mounding soil or having it flat...its the bigger picture. You claim to be new and have only sticks in pots and claim that you are fine with that and then make the claim that I quoted...you are completely missing what bonsai is about, walk the mile do it for a long time learn everything you can and are able to about it and its rules that you are also bashing, then you can come and claim such bold things...as you have now done out of complete ignorance

best regards
Herman

namnhi · Oct 14, 2016

Buddy, do you even know what is the core of the debate that I brought up on this thread about? You can't just quote on line without knowing what the thread about. Read before commenting.

YukiShiro · Oct 14, 2016

LOL!!!!

Adair M · Oct 14, 2016

Anthony,

And namnhi,

This thread is a spinoff from Markyscott's excellent thread on soil physics.

Anthony, you can argue about aesthics all you want, but physics is physics! Your statement about how you don't know if shallow containers hold more water is true...

You like to test stuff out. Here is an easy test!

Get a new rectangular sponge. Soak it in water. Pick it up, don't squeeze it, just let the excess water run out. Now, set it down flat on a table. Some water will puddle out. Wipe that up. After s couple minutes, the water will stop running out, and the sponge will retain the water.

Now, lift one side of the sponge so that it now stands on an edge. What happens? Water runs out of the sponge! In that orientation, the sponge is able to hold less water! The volume of the sponge hadn't changed. The orientation has.

Soil acts like the sponge. It is able to hold more water for a given volume when it's in a flat shallow orientation.

So... if you want your pots to hold more water, use wider, shallower pots!

If you are concerned that the water will evaporate because of the greater surface area, you could do something like put a thin layer of spaghnum moss over the top.

Since you like to perform experiments, perhaps you could run some measuring how much water evaporates from soils.

PiñonJ · Oct 14, 2016

Adair M said:
Here are a few pics I pulled off Ryan's webpage:

View attachment 120000

View attachment 120001

View attachment 120002

View attachment 120003

Those all look pretty darn flat to me!

Does he have a few that are mounded? Yes, he does. They are in very small pots. But the vast majority are pretty flat.

There's a big difference between 'pretty flat' and 'flat,' just like there's a big difference between 'mostly dead' and 'all dead.'

You chose images that have some of the flattest soil surfaces on the website, and they are still not planar. There are many images like the following (and if you walk his garden, a majority of the trees are like this). This is the first image in the Bonsai gallery and it is neither a small tree, nor a small pot (height 34"):

I'm not being argumentative, and this is not in reference to Anthony's tree. I think a discussion of aesthetic sense is valuable, and people reading this thread should know what informs your aesthetic sense. Your teacher adheres to a very traditional Japanese bonsai aesthetic. If you look at the photos on Boon's website, all of the trees in his Personal Work album have flat, or pretty flat soil surfaces. Ryan has everything from flat to mound to nothing-but-mound (plantings on wood slabs). The individual bonsai practitioner has to decide for him- or herself what aesthetic appeals to them, or what is more appropriate for an individual tree.

Adair M · Oct 14, 2016

Also, most of Ryan's trees are only a few years off the mountain. The root systems are still adapting to bonsai pots.

PiñonJ · Oct 14, 2016

Adair M said:
Also, most of Ryan's trees are only a few years off the mountain. The root systems are still adapting to bonsai pots.

Very true.

Adair M · Oct 14, 2016

PiñonJ said:
There's a big difference between 'pretty flat' and 'flat,' just like there's a big difference between 'mostly dead' and 'all dead.'

You chose images that have some of the flattest soil surfaces on the website, and they are still not planar. There are many images like the following (and if you walk his garden, a majority of the trees are like this). This is the first image in the Bonsai gallery and it is neither a small tree, nor a small pot (height 34"):
View attachment 120084
I'm not being argumentative, and this is not in reference to Anthony's tree. I think a discussion of aesthetic sense is valuable, and people reading this thread should know what informs your aesthetic sense. Your teacher adheres to a very traditional Japanese bonsai aesthetic. If you look at the photos on Boon's website, all of the trees in his Personal Work album have flat, or pretty flat soil surfaces. Ryan has everything from flat to mound to nothing-but-mound (plantings on wood slabs). The individual bonsai practitioner has to decide for him- or herself what aesthetic appeals to them, or what is more appropriate for an individual tree.

Perhaps then, we should take a look at Kimura's garden?

http://www.bonsaiempire.com/inspiration/bonsai-japan/masahiko-kimura

Again, 90% of the trees have flat,not mounded root systems. The ones planted on slabs, of course they're mounded. But not very high.

Now, most of Kimura's trees have been bonsai for quite a long time. They've been repotted dozens of times. Most of Ryan's are new bonsai. Oh, they're old trees, but they've been bonsai less than 5 years or so. Once they've been bonsai 20 years, and been potted 4 or 5 times as bonsai, then their root systems will have matured. And can be planted flatter.

PiñonJ · Oct 14, 2016

As I said in my first post, it's partly just semantics. I understand that root balls will be reduced in height as a tree goes through successive re-pottings. But what you're calling 'flat,' I still see as sloped. I don't think all that many trees would look good in perfectly level soil. They need to be well-established and powerful-looking, in my opinion. Even in your example, most of Kimura's trees have some slope to the soil line. Also, the point about Ryan is that he is willing to accept a significantly sloped soil line to get the tree into the pot that he believes will best complement it. At any rate, thanks for getting us thinking about the issue!

Anthony · Oct 15, 2016

Good Morning Sifu [ @Adair M ]

you need to remember our soil mix was evolved back in the early 80's.
3 components - 2 inorganic and 1 organic

5 mm silica based gravel [ non porous ]
5 mm crushed red brick [ porous ]
at that time - sifted aged cow manure - around the 90's aged compost.

Rodale was our source of information and a workbook sold by the Bonsai Farm [ Texas ]

It is a simple blend and can also be just gravel with little organic matter [ in the case of Ficus or Pines ]

We use porous earthenware pots for some trees - Pines for example - pot evaporates water and cools the soil.
Very hard to over water even with constant rain.
Height limit internally 6 inches [ 15 cm ]

These days the pots are 3" deep but broader.

Trunk and root development used ground growing and a colander.
After removal, the tree is left in the colander for around 6 months to restart the fine root growth, before transferring
to an oversized bonsai pot and the next stage of training.

Death of anything is very rare and the mix works.

When I show something - eg - the Fustic drying out - it is to show the problem - then a solution
and also to say we goofed - have no ego problems and hopefully help someone who had the same problem
or might run into it.

We have based most of new work as soil goes, looking for the optimum - The Ball Bearing principle - freely draining
, water retaining and fresh air exchange.
Hence the marbles, 3mm spheres , lecca [ hydroponic fired clay "balls " ] and hand rolled 8 mm porous earthenware spheres.

The idea is the K.I.S.S. principle.

Thus far it works, and we have nothing but fine feeder roots, lush foliage, that can be sculpted into shapes by the take away
technique.

So when I admit, I don't know, I am being honest.

Additionally, if one isn't having problems, what would I need to research ?

Research, yes, but into growing new never used trees/shrubs and ground weeds.
I hope this explains.
Respectfully.
Anthony

Adair M · Oct 15, 2016

Anthony said:
Good Morning Sifu [ @Adair M ]

Additionally, if one isn't having problems, what would I need to research ?

Respectfully.
Anthony

Because the first picture in this thread, your tree, is improperly potted.

Again, do another google search: "Kokofu-ten bonsai". Click on the images, and look. Also, so not be confused by fluffy moss. The soil is what we are discussing here. The soil in the vast majority of the trees is only below the rim.

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