Yamadori in the U.S.

Waltron

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The more I think about pines the more I like the idea of looking for Jack Pine, I actually have one on my property that is pretty interesting I plan to try. There has to be good really good Jack somewhere in Michigan, I'm going to keep looking. I really like short needle pines and Jack is one that responds well to techniques.

that's the right attitude, I'm willing to bet there are many. its like looking for a needle in a stack of needles, but much more fun. last time I want jack hunting I came across several of the rare kirtland's warbler birds, which people travel from far and wide just to attempt to catch a glimpse of, not to mention turkey, deer, bald eagle, grouse, and a bunch of other funny little critters. Also, some great spruce, larch, fir, oak and potentially even junipers and many other interesting other rare to me species of trees like alder and red pine and cool ferns and other plants which could be used as accents, not to mention that magical michigan sphag moss. All the while im in my element doing what makes me happy, eagerly waking up at first light to get out there not thinking about work or problems chillin with my dog riding around in the jeep with the doors and top off a smile on my face hoping to come across a gem, granted I have fortunate connections that enable me search vast areas of private and public land without too much stress.

Also, not only is the jack pine rare in bonsai, like you mentioned, the characteristics offered of small needles, willingness to bud back , the fact that its a pine and will develop attractive bark, are all present, unlike many other species. The set backs and roadblocks encountered by others are the focal and starting points, not dead ends, these are things that warrant attention and investigation. The perceived difficulty and to some extent, mystery, involved with keeping them happy in pot culture is alluring to me, the search itself to find answers and blaze trail and the potential to achieve success, rather than focusing on the potential to achieve failure, keeps me intrigued. the shear fact that there is little available research on the net on pot culture for the species is remarkable. you and I are fortunate to be interested, and benefit from being young and able enough to embark on a lengthy experiment with lesser specimens, that in keen hands could eventually amount to satisfying, self made, rare, collected bonsai. it would be great if more people were conducting such research, Wally Pall himself told me he can hardly keep them alive, though he did not offer specific reasons as to why.

its clear that traditional methods, for the most part, do not work with this species, and I believe its also pretty clear that Vance has uncovered some important research and overlooked ideas in his work with Mugos that will prove to be of great benefit with the banksiana. One other thing that I have come to realize as a huge benefit with pines in general, is the ability to extremely manipulate branches with wire, opens up many styling and material options that are difficult to recognize at first. Its seems you can really bring even sparse foliage back in closer to the trunk without clipping. Which brings me to another point I think is important when collecting these regarding plant physiology, I think that the common approach of removing extra or "un necessary" foliage at time of collection is a direct correlation to the species not recovering well, giving it the label as difficult or unsuitable species. if the foliage must be clipped for some reason, then it cant be collected that season. There are more appropriate times to remove that stuff.

My theories, while I doubt they are original or unique in the scope of things, are basically this: Midsummer collection, after needles have just barely hardened off as a starting window, is a good time to dig, dont cut any live foliage whatsoever, leave it all not matter what. I think this will give more forgiveness to the cutting the of the roots, which is another problem in itself, ideally you would not cut them at all, Andy Smith has made this very clear, but inevitably some must be cut, which you must do with a trenching method,( in open ground of course if you find one on a rock outcrop great) by taking a huge, heavy, rather deep, soil compacted root ball. containerize with something that can hold that rootball whatever it may be, I used large grow bags, but I think that a heavy burlap wrapping would be an option, Then baby them in the usual way, give vitamin b, monitor the rootball before watering, keeping in mind its not bonsai soil but mostly compacted dirt sand and grass, water with quality plant water, rain, fish tank, good well water etc. get them back in full sun gradually, but rather soon, the same season, Fertilize gently a couple weeks later, keeping in mind the species has a salt intolerance and is ph sensitive, that's about as far as I've gotten, but im 3 for 3 so far with this method, all 3 are clearly still alive 8 months after collection, today, and showed what I interpret as signs of life and growth by early August last year, extending buds and sap covering some candles, but the big sign for me was the increased firmness, or stabilization in the container, which is clear sign of root growth. i know 8 months is not nearly long enough to call it with any pines, but im offering up my ideas anyway, all the old needles dropped in winter, but the newer needles are fine and green today. I will take 3 slightly differnt, conservative approaches with each one, with hopes that I will be able to identify avoidable mistakes if one route proves to be fatal. All in all I realize this does not sound attractive to most, and they certainly wont even resemble bonsai for a few years even, and that right there im sure is a huge brake pumper for most folks, I'm just happy they are alive and look forward to playing with them eventually getting them into smaller containers.
 
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Interesting thoughts @Waltron as long as you can keep your intense interest in this I'm sure you will find a really good method with Jack Pine and other species.

I am a little unsure about the idea of not cutting off any foliage at collection. Pines get there strength from the roots not the foliage and I would be conserned that there would be water loss with too much foliage. Although I do think it is important to leave a lot of foliage and more foliage than roots so that the tree forces itself to produce more roots to keep up with the foliage up top. Obviously it's really important to get as much root as possible and leave a lot of field soil and feeder roots intact. Bigger trees will probably need at least some foliage cut.

I'm excited to start the search for some nice Jack and in the mean time I will experiment with the ones growing on my property.
 

Waltron

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yea it is just a theory at this point, but I think the hormones in the bud tips will help tell the plant to stay alive rather than kick it.
 
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aml1014

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Interesting thoughts @Waltron as long as you can keep your intense interest in this I'm sure you will find a really good method with Jack Pine and other species.

I am a little unsure about the idea of not cutting off any foliage at collection. Pines get there strength from the roots not the foliage and I would be conserned that there would be water loss with too much foliage. Although I do think it is important to leave a lot of foliage and more foliage than roots so that the tree forces itself to produce more roots to keep up with the foliage up top. Obviously it's really important to get as much root as possible and leave a lot of field soil and feeder roots intact. Bigger trees will probably need at least some foliage cut.

I'm excited to start the search for some nice Jack and in the mean time I will experiment with the ones growing on my property.
Last spring when I was ponderosa hunting I only pruned one tree, and that was just to fit it in the car. I only had one casualty out of 9 trees (it was a victim of one of our notoriously bad wind storms in spring, and I had it in a BAD place that day).

Aaron
 

Waltron

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I spoke with Jack Wickle about the jack pine last night and he said he "used to have one", which I take it as it died on him, and he is a very respectable bonsai expert. he did suggest a soil mix.. 1 part grit, 2 part fir bark, 3 part sifted turface... made a funny face when i mentioned lava rock and pumice actually, and then recommended that mix. these are a difficult, uncommon species, not your regular pine. Ponderosa are much more resilient aka easy to collect from the wild, than jacks.
 

Vance Wood

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I wouldn't recommend anyone trying to use EWP. Many have tried. I've only seen a few decent ones in my 45 years of messing with bonsai. There are many more "bonsai friendly" species available.
Pitch Pine, Virginia Pine, and Jack Pine are all bonsai favorable Pine Species and Red Sprice, Picea Rubrum, I saw some of these at the National show this last year in this part of the country. Go out West and the list increases astronomically.
 

Waltron

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Jack is one of the nicest guys, he mentored a mentor of mine who has had a succesful Jack Pine for last 15-20 years. I will try and take a pic of it.

very interested in what your mentor is doing with his, anything out of the norm or just regular pine stuff?
 
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very interested in what your mentor is doing with his, anything out of the norm or just regular pine stuff?
I will talk in detail with him about it in the spring but I know he uses a very similar soil mix as Jack. I know he repots in spring and otherwise uses normal Pine technique. There may be some exceptions I'll keep you posted.
 

Waltron

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I've been told by numerous people to "treat them like a 2 needle pine" like a scotch.. which no doubt has merit, but there is more to it than that. There is also no doubt that once the Jack pine is established in good soil and small container you would treat them in the same way as most pines, the conundrum I believe lies in getting them to that point from the field. Jack Wickle even said that the scots and japanese pines are better for various reasons which I fully understand, I am very interested in them as well, I personally just have more interest in the natives that I've gathered myself. If I had a good place to collect those other pines I'd certainly be all about it. the japanese red pine is particularly attractive to me but its unlikely that I will acquire one.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Apology - I said something that was probably not correctly attributing cause and effect. I am in zone 5b and have lost several Andy Smith ponderosa over the winter. I had not brought them into the well house to winter, left them outside under a bench. Then I started keeping my Ponderosa in a controlled temperature ''well house'', where temps never went much below freezing. Those ponderosa pines survived.

But as I think about it, whether or not my Ponderosa pines survived my zone 5b winter may have had nothing to do with the tree's ability to tolerate cold, it might have a lot to do with what I did to them over the summer. The trees I lost all had major work done that spring or summer. So I withdraw my statement that they are not that winter hardy. That is one of the problems with slower growing trees, correctly figuring out cause and effect. These days I have a better grip on growing pines in general. I think I will try again wintering my Ponderosa pines outside, under my bench, protected from wind by a tarp covering three sides leaving the north side open.

It is hard sometimes figuring out what you did wrong.

Another thing, how much winter protection you give a tree may change from year to year depending on what you did to the tree and whether or not the tree had time to recover.
 

discusmike

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I think as of recent the Black Friday shopping Rush to collect yamadori,reminiscent of the gold rush of the 1800's will be the extinction rare old trees similar to the shrimp epademic in Japan as one member stated,so many people collecting for profit now,I do believe it's getting out of control,not to mention many of the trees die after collection or by the hand of a inexperienced owner,there is no never ending supply,I'm not against collecting but I do believe it's getting out of hand as of recent.
 

Wilson

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I agree with you @discusmike about how there are numerous professional collectors now selling online. I do think however, that North America is so vast in comparison to Japan that we won't be around to ever experience an extinction of quality yamadori. Maybe in a few decades people will have to go further into the backcountry to find true gems, but not extinct.
 

chicago1980

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I agree with you @discusmike about how there are numerous professional collectors now selling online. I do think however, that North America is so vast in comparison to Japan that we won't be around to ever experience an extinction of quality yamadori. Maybe in a few decades people will have to go further into the backcountry to find true gems, but not extinct.
We also have protected lands which is awesome!
 

Vance Wood

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I have seen many of these same trees out West, Grand Canyon, Monument Valley, Escalante etc, some of the most remarkable territory in the world containing some of the most remarkable trees in existence.
 
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