Old JWP
- Thread starter Jurriemr2
- Start date
The branch does look weak. But not unhealthy.
It's probably getting shaded by upper branches.
Yes, it's important to thin the top from time to time to weaken it, and allow sunlight to get to the lower branches.
As you know, JWP are slow to grow, and slow to backbud. Because of this, people are reluctant to cut back. The problem is, the branches tend to get longer and longer. It happens a lot.
The challenge with JWP is keeping foliage healthy close to the trunk. Having healthy interior foliage will give you something to cut back to when your branches get too long. By wiring the branches out flatter, the woody branches will get exposed to the sun, which will help them backbud.
If you have long upper branches that can be shortened, that would help.
Giving this kind of advice is really difficult without having the tree in front of me.
There's no rush. This fall would be a good time to cut back. You might want to take this tree to a local Master to have a private class or workshop.
Meanwhile, make sure the weak branches get plenty of sun.
It's probably getting shaded by upper branches.
Yes, it's important to thin the top from time to time to weaken it, and allow sunlight to get to the lower branches.
As you know, JWP are slow to grow, and slow to backbud. Because of this, people are reluctant to cut back. The problem is, the branches tend to get longer and longer. It happens a lot.
The challenge with JWP is keeping foliage healthy close to the trunk. Having healthy interior foliage will give you something to cut back to when your branches get too long. By wiring the branches out flatter, the woody branches will get exposed to the sun, which will help them backbud.
If you have long upper branches that can be shortened, that would help.
Giving this kind of advice is really difficult without having the tree in front of me.
There's no rush. This fall would be a good time to cut back. You might want to take this tree to a local Master to have a private class or workshop.
Meanwhile, make sure the weak branches get plenty of sun.
Tentakelaertje
Omono
Hi there,
I'm frome Arnhem. The place to be.
Are you on any dutch forums?
Groetjes
Yea, on the empire forum, but I don't talk a lot. There's also a couple of Dutch facebook groups that are really nice
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
I don't have mature white pines. I strongly believe that when you have a good quality tree that is known to be a bit fussy, you take it step by step. I would nurture this tree until fall without messing with it. Give it light organic fertilizer, build up from needle hardening. Wire in fall and start selecting the branches in the top where-ever possible. Balance by needle plucking. Next year you will notice (hopefully) the tree is stronger and you can start pinching if the tree is ready. Have you watched Ryan Neil's pine lectures? It's a good and simple basic approach.
Jurriemr2,
At the risk of being repetitive, wiring and shaping this tree should be the furthest thing from your mind. My reasons: You have only being doing bonsai for a short time and you have only had this tree for a short time. The most vital thing for you to concentrate on is the horticulture of the White pine. It is easy to make a mistake with it and lose the tree. Trust me I grew about 200 from seed in 2000. I sold a few and I lost a few. I have 10 left. In other words, I have 17 years experience with them and I believe I am just starting to realize what I don't yet know about them. ( I am willing to hear any more information about them from anyone) They are very beautiful trees and to have one like yours which I would guess is around 25 to 30 years is pretty special. They certainly are not available in this country!
The most important thing for you to concentrate on is getting the tree to gain strength. That means no wiring. Remember, when you wire and bend a branch, however little, you damage cells along that branch which reduces it's ability to grow for a while until it repairs the damage. Wiring also restricts movement of nutrients and water by constriction. You don't need to worry about shaping this tree for 2 years. As Adair said (and yes I agree with this point) is that it is very common for White pines to be trimmed incorrectly and end up with long bare branches and shoots on the tips. I know this because I have made the same mistake. Even though I have pinched the new candles every year I have still ended up with long bare branches on some trees (there is huge variation too between seedlings). I have read from Japanese writers that it is best to cut branches on young trees rather than only pinch. In other words, let the shoots grow and then go back and cut out the strong areas and replace them with weaker branches further back. Your tree is past this stage but you will still need to do leader replacement to get the foliage closer in towards the trunk. To do this successfully, the tree needs to have vitality. Your tree is not as vigorous as it could be and that's why I suggest you concentrate on getting strength back into it.
Here you can see that you have long bare areas (red) which eventually will probably be replaced with the branches further in (yellow)
I have no doubt that the rest of the tree is the same. You cannot just cut off the long branches because this would weaken the tree tremendously. You must do it in steps. Increase the strength by feeding and plenty of sun and break the candles as normal. That is, break off 2/3 on the outer braches and 1/3 to 1/2 (or nothing) on the inner branches. In autumn, remove more needles from the outer branches and fewer from those further back. After a couple of years - assuming everything else goes to plan - the tree should be strong enough to start removing and replacing a few of the leaders here and there on the tree. I'm writing this to cement the idea into my own head as much as yours!
At this stage, the tree is open enough to allow sunlight into the interior therefore I would recommend no branch pruning at the moment.
At the risk of being repetitive, wiring and shaping this tree should be the furthest thing from your mind. My reasons: You have only being doing bonsai for a short time and you have only had this tree for a short time. The most vital thing for you to concentrate on is the horticulture of the White pine. It is easy to make a mistake with it and lose the tree. Trust me I grew about 200 from seed in 2000. I sold a few and I lost a few. I have 10 left. In other words, I have 17 years experience with them and I believe I am just starting to realize what I don't yet know about them. ( I am willing to hear any more information about them from anyone) They are very beautiful trees and to have one like yours which I would guess is around 25 to 30 years is pretty special. They certainly are not available in this country!
The most important thing for you to concentrate on is getting the tree to gain strength. That means no wiring. Remember, when you wire and bend a branch, however little, you damage cells along that branch which reduces it's ability to grow for a while until it repairs the damage. Wiring also restricts movement of nutrients and water by constriction. You don't need to worry about shaping this tree for 2 years. As Adair said (and yes I agree with this point
) is that it is very common for White pines to be trimmed incorrectly and end up with long bare branches and shoots on the tips. I know this because I have made the same mistake. Even though I have pinched the new candles every year I have still ended up with long bare branches on some trees (there is huge variation too between seedlings). I have read from Japanese writers that it is best to cut branches on young trees rather than only pinch. In other words, let the shoots grow and then go back and cut out the strong areas and replace them with weaker branches further back. Your tree is past this stage but you will still need to do leader replacement to get the foliage closer in towards the trunk. To do this successfully, the tree needs to have vitality. Your tree is not as vigorous as it could be and that's why I suggest you concentrate on getting strength back into it.Here you can see that you have long bare areas (red) which eventually will probably be replaced with the branches further in (yellow)
I have no doubt that the rest of the tree is the same. You cannot just cut off the long branches because this would weaken the tree tremendously. You must do it in steps. Increase the strength by feeding and plenty of sun and break the candles as normal. That is, break off 2/3 on the outer braches and 1/3 to 1/2 (or nothing) on the inner branches. In autumn, remove more needles from the outer branches and fewer from those further back. After a couple of years - assuming everything else goes to plan - the tree should be strong enough to start removing and replacing a few of the leaders here and there on the tree. I'm writing this to cement the idea into my own head as much as yours!
At this stage, the tree is open enough to allow sunlight into the interior therefore I would recommend no branch pruning at the moment.
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I agree with most of what Michael is saying. Grow and cut back is the best approach to getting good strong interior branching.Jurriemr2,
At the risk of being repetitive, wiring and shaping this tree should be the furthest thing from your mind. My reasons: You have only being doing bonsai for a short time and you have only had this tree for a short time. The most vital thing for you to concentrate on is the horticulture of the White pine. It is easy to make a mistake with it and lose the tree. Trust me I grew about 200 from seed in 2000. I sold a few and I lost a few. I have 10 left. In other words, I have 17 years experience with them and I believe I am just starting to realize what I don't yet know about them. ( I am willing to hear any more information about them from anyone) They are very beautiful trees and to have one like yours which I would guess is around 25 to 30 years is pretty special. They certainly are not available in this country!
The most important thing for you to concentrate on is getting the tree to gain strength. That means no wiring. Remember, when you wire and bend a branch, however little, you damage cells along that branch which reduces it's ability to grow for a while until it repairs the damage. Wiring also restricts movement of nutrients and water by constriction. You don't need to worry about shaping this tree for 2 years. As Adair said (and yes I agree with this point
Here you can see that you have long bare areas (red) which eventually will probably be replaced with the branches further in (yellow)
View attachment 138525
I have no doubt that the rest of the tree is the same. You cannot just cut off the long branches because this would weaken the tree tremendously. You must do it in steps. Increase the strength by feeding and plenty of sun and break the candles as normal. That is, break off 2/3 on the outer braches and 1/3 to 1/2 (or nothing) on the inner branches. In autumn, remove more needles from the outer branches and fewer from those further back. After a couple of years - assuming everything else goes to plan - the tree should be strong enough to start removing and replacing a few of the leaders here and there on the tree. I'm writing this to cement the idea into my own head as much as yours!
At this stage, the tree is open enough to allow sunlight into the interior therefore I would recommend no branch pruning at the moment.
This cultivar of JWP has thin branches that stay pretty flexible. Wiring next fall won't injure them at all.
The purpose I see with wiring is to open up the foliage so that sunlight can hit the woody branches. By splaying the foliage out, the dormant buds in the branches will get stimulated to grow. If left shaded by foliage, they won't.
Here's a visual: take your hand, turn it palm up. Now curl your fingers in so that the tips are pointing up. Or as if you are holding a ball. Looking from above at your hand, you can see your palm, and your finger tips, but not the first two joints on your fingers.
Now take your fingers and spread them all splayed out. Now you can see all the length of your fingers.
The first position is how the tree is now. Much of each branch is shaded by the existing foliage. Splaying the foliage out will expose the branches to the sun, and will stimulate backbudding!
I have a JWP that was wired out two years ago. Very similiar to Jur's in that there were long thin branches with foliage on the tips, but needed backbudding. Now, two years later, back budding is beginning. The buds have been forming, and I expect this spring they'll send out shoots. (JBP take s long time to backbud!)
I'll take a picture in the morning.
Had the tree not been wired to expose the wood to the sun, it would NEVER had backbudded.
Michael, the guy who helped me with this is an expert with JWP. He has won at Kokofu.
Yes but they can back bud if they are very healthy ...and well established, which I'm sure yours is, and if they are of a variety which tends to do this. Some don't.
Wiring always restricts the growth of a branch....always. If you don't believe me, take any tree, wire one branch and leave the rest. see what happens.
Anyway I wish Jurr the best for this tree whatever he decides to do with it.
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Michael, Jur's tree looks healthy to me, just unbalanced. By that, I mean that some parts are stronger than others. There is no way to strengthen one part of a tree over another part. The only tool we have is to weaken the stronger parts so that the weaker parts can catch up.
Jur, sorry your thread has been hijacked by Michael and myself. We both like your tree, and want the best for it. Like many things with bonsai, there can be different valid approaches. It's possible that both methods would work in the long run.
I will post pictures of my white Pines backbudding tomorrow.
Jurriemr2
Sapling
Hello Guy's.
I really like iT thate you discus This hete with me. I can learn from iT And think about whate i can do to the tree. I Will react later today because I'm working.
I really like iT thate you discus This hete with me. I can learn from iT And think about whate i can do to the tree. I Will react later today because I'm working.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Jur, don't be confused if your buds don't extend as "candles". Many times JWP buds do not actually extend, so you don't cut them at all. All you would do in this case is to thin the buds in the strong areas as already described to you earlier in the thread. When I first started working with JWP that part always confused me as my first JWP never had extending candles, yet everything I read talked about cutting them.
Here are pictures of one of my JWP back budding:
It's taken several years. After wiring, no back budding the first year. The second year, buds appeared, but they didn't open. Now this year, it appears I can see that needles are forming in the buds, so I should start to see new needles. Hopefully next year they'll be stronger.
It's taken several years. After wiring, no back budding the first year. The second year, buds appeared, but they didn't open. Now this year, it appears I can see that needles are forming in the buds, so I should start to see new needles. Hopefully next year they'll be stronger.
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
nice result..
Well Adair, I have to say that if that is the result after several years, it shows you certainly can't rely on the pitiful back budding of a JWP for future branch replacement. It's more like a bonus than a probability. The fact is that if they have reached the long bare stage the only reliable remedy is replacement with back branches and if you don't have replacements, then grafting. To me this further proves that wiring out fans at this stage is probably only aesthetic. There really is no problem letting a pine, especially the parviflora loose shape for a few years for the sake of gaining vigour.
Uh, Michael??? I have always stated that JWP are reluctant back budders. Actually, I'm quite pleased to get these back buds in only 3 years. (2 1/2 actually). In two more years, these buds will be little branches. They maybe strong enough to cut back to by then. Maybe not.
But let's say it takes a decade. If that's what it takes, that's what it takes. But until the wood is exposed to the sun, there will be no back budding. So, the longer you wait to wire it out, the longer it will be before the backbudding process will begin.
Which is exactly why you see so many JWP (and JBP, too) with long spindly branches. Their owners will not wire them out to keep the interior branches exposed to the sun.
I have little buds like these all over the tree. When they finally produce foliage, the tree is going to be lush!
That's the tree that's backbudding.
I don't think I need to place any grafts.
Wiring the tree out, and keeping it properly maintained will allow the tree to continuously produce bsckbuds and develop interior foliage.
Interior foliage is the future of the tree. Branches will eventually grow to be too long. And will have to cut back. So it's important to always be developing healthy interior branches.
You don't rely on back-budding to get density on white pines. Pinching and pruning in the early stages is what is needed. If you need back-budding, you have already let it go too far.
In this video you can see a 25 year old which has never been wired. Is it dense enough for you? There's a whole a field full of such trees. None have ever been wired.
Back budding occurring after wiring is a good thing! It never hurts to have extra branches in the interior of the tree but it is not a standard technique used to density with pine. It's not your reason here......
...........''Which is exactly why you see so many JWP (and JBP, too) with long spindly branches.
Their owners will not wire them out to keep the interior branches exposed to the sun''........
..........that they have bare branches, it's a lack of correct pruning early on which you can clearly see has been performed on the tree/s in the video.
The desire or instruction to wire out the branches is an attempt to fix a problem which should not have occurred in the first place and not much of a solution at that.
BTW Adair, looking at your tree, I feel it has way too many branches. If you thin it out, you will get more backbudding..
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I agree that proper pruning and thinning are also part of the ongoing maintenance protocol. But, if those tasks have been neglected, or performed poorly, in the past, steps have to be taken to stop the decline, and set the tree on a better path going forward. Pruning and thinning and proper fertilizing are part of it. Yes, growing out may be justified, too. Wiring has a place as well.
I have heard all kinds of theories of how to "force" trees to back bud. For me, wiring appears to work. A theory of why it works is by wiring, (and bending the branches) little micro cracks are made in the exterior bark. These allow sunlight to penetrate the outer bark, and reach tissue that is otherwise covered. When exposed to sunlight, this tissue is then stimulated to bud.
But it doesn't matter. I have posted proof that wired out branches will backbud.
I rather like Pines with a lot of branches. Most pine bonsai I see don't have enough.
I have heard all kinds of theories of how to "force" trees to back bud. For me, wiring appears to work. A theory of why it works is by wiring, (and bending the branches) little micro cracks are made in the exterior bark. These allow sunlight to penetrate the outer bark, and reach tissue that is otherwise covered. When exposed to sunlight, this tissue is then stimulated to bud.
But it doesn't matter. I have posted proof that wired out branches will backbud.
I rather like Pines with a lot of branches. Most pine bonsai I see don't have enough.
Jur,
Something has been troubling me about your tree. I think I've figured it out...
You stated that it was "on its own roots". Sure enough, can't see any evidence of a graft on the trunk. But...
The foliage is a cultivar that is pretty much only propagated via grafting. It doesn't airlayer. You can't get it from a seedling. So, how is it that we have this wonderful trunk with old flaky bark with this foliage?
Upon closer examination, I see a lot of old jinned branches. Hmmm... All the current JWP branches still have juvenile bark on them. Hmmmm....
What you have is a JBP trunk with grafted on JWP foliage. All the JWP branches have been grafted on. The Jin's were all the old JBP branches that were no longer needed once the JWP branches became established.
I don't know if this tree was sold to you as a yamadori JWP. It is not. If it were, the price would be astronomical! You have a JBP (or maybe Scots Pine) trunk with grafted on branches.
Which may explain why some branches are weak if the graft union is weak.
Now, does that make it a bad tree? Not at all! I have a JWP, with a very similiar cultivar as yours, where the JWP was grafted onto a Lodgepole trunk. It's very beautiful.
My grafted JWP:
Something has been troubling me about your tree. I think I've figured it out...
You stated that it was "on its own roots". Sure enough, can't see any evidence of a graft on the trunk. But...
The foliage is a cultivar that is pretty much only propagated via grafting. It doesn't airlayer. You can't get it from a seedling. So, how is it that we have this wonderful trunk with old flaky bark with this foliage?
Upon closer examination, I see a lot of old jinned branches. Hmmm... All the current JWP branches still have juvenile bark on them. Hmmmm....
What you have is a JBP trunk with grafted on JWP foliage. All the JWP branches have been grafted on. The Jin's were all the old JBP branches that were no longer needed once the JWP branches became established.
I don't know if this tree was sold to you as a yamadori JWP. It is not. If it were, the price would be astronomical! You have a JBP (or maybe Scots Pine) trunk with grafted on branches.
Which may explain why some branches are weak if the graft union is weak.
Now, does that make it a bad tree? Not at all! I have a JWP, with a very similiar cultivar as yours, where the JWP was grafted onto a Lodgepole trunk. It's very beautiful.
My grafted JWP:
Jurriemr2
Sapling
Hello,
First of all. Thnx to everyone. For discusing about the backbudding. Really intresting to me And the other forum mebers.
First of all. Thnx to everyone. For discusing about the backbudding. Really intresting to me And the other forum mebers.
Jurriemr2
Sapling
IT was sold to me as a JWP. Not a yamadori. I asumed that iT was on his OWN roots. But don't know for sure. I'm gonna contact the seller And ask him. The price of the tree was €450,-. I will let you know whate hè says. It doesn't Bother me of iT is crafted. I really love This tree.
Really beutifull your crafted tree.
Thnx for the time you toulk to learn me about JWP
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Jurriemr2
Sapling
Jurriemr2,
At the risk of being repetitive, wiring and shaping this tree should be the furthest thing from your mind. My reasons: You have only being doing bonsai for a short time and you have only had this tree for a short time. The most vital thing for you to concentrate on is the horticulture of the White pine. It is easy to make a mistake with it and lose the tree. Trust me I grew about 200 from seed in 2000. I sold a few and I lost a few. I have 10 left. In other words, I have 17 years experience with them and I believe I am just starting to realize what I don't yet know about them. ( I am willing to hear any more information about them from anyone) They are very beautiful trees and to have one like yours which I would guess is around 25 to 30 years is pretty special. They certainly are not available in this country!
The most important thing for you to concentrate on is getting the tree to gain strength. That means no wiring. Remember, when you wire and bend a branch, however little, you damage cells along that branch which reduces it's ability to grow for a while until it repairs the damage. Wiring also restricts movement of nutrients and water by constriction. You don't need to worry about shaping this tree for 2 years. As Adair said (and yes I agree with this point
Here you can see that you have long bare areas (red) which eventually will probably be replaced with the branches further in (yellow)
View attachment 138525
I have no doubt that the rest of the tree is the same. You cannot just cut off the long branches because this would weaken the tree tremendously. You must do it in steps. Increase the strength by feeding and plenty of sun and break the candles as normal. That is, break off 2/3 on the outer braches and 1/3 to 1/2 (or nothing) on the inner branches. In autumn, remove more needles from the outer branches and fewer from those further back. After a couple of years - assuming everything else goes to plan - the tree should be strong enough to start removing and replacing a few of the leaders here and there on the tree. I'm writing this to cement the idea into my own head as much as yours!
At this stage, the tree is open enough to allow sunlight into the interior therefore I would recommend no branch pruning at the moment.
Thnx Michel,
I agree that the tree doesn't need to be wired. When the sun is shining I can See the sun touches the branches that are in the sun. Sow with enoug sun, furtulizing en Turing the tree every week I'm sure I will make iT stronger. Also with shortening the shoots.
I can See quit a bit of shorter inner brenche that Will make a perfect candidate to vut back to. This Will open punten top of the tree also. But This cutting back had to waight until the tree is steong enough? Did i understand that wright?
Thnx fore tour time.
