Is bonsai art? - inspired by BVF

sawgrass said:

Either way... I am out of here and outta this site. It's been real... I think

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Hey Stacy!
This isn't the answer to this guy.
It will just make him feel just that much better.
Personally I think you are a true artist.
He obviously wouldn't know art if I whacked him over the head with a Remington bronze.

I still think he's a frustrated artist wanna-be, but...on these forums, who knows what people really believe? He may really believe that bonsai is art and just likes to rile people up. I think he's actually said that a few times (and isn't that the definition of an internet troll, as @Smoke suggested)?

M. Frary said:

He's got trees Vance.
He just doesn't have any idea what he's doing.

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SSOOO____ You are saying that with all his talk about art he has no clue how to produce art?

Vance Wood said:

SSOOO____ You are saying that with all his talk about art he has no clue how to produce art?

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I believe so.
But then again maybe he just likes poking bees nests and sleeping bears.
Likes to stir things up.
And no matter what anyone says he will just disagree with whatever is said just to start an argument.
And apparently he thinks he's the thunder from down under.
I have that problem. Thunder from down under.
I call it gas.

just.wing.it said:

This thread made me think of this book, so I decided to throw the pic in.
Out of all the bonsai books I've read so far, this one is my favorite.
It reads kinda like a text book from school, which is fine with me, and is a good reference.
View attachment 142091
Extra points if you can see what's in the background

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Where did you get that book?

MichaelS said:

The artist IS the viewer. The only viewer that matters.

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And yet, out of the other side of your mouth you say that

MichaelS said:

When I see comments regarding someone being referred to as an artist, the image that comes to mind is someone who has slaved away with his/her work day in day out, without any consideration to their finances, health or public standing. Someone who above all else seeks to bring out an individual and deeply personal thought or idea from the deepest recesses of their minds and are hardly ever satisfied with what they do. Someone who hardly cares if the work they do is recognized by others and the only important thing is that burning desire to turn their dream into some kind of external form whether it be sound, movement or physical form.
Looking at the work of bonsai people, I just don't see that. Most of the time, the way I see it, the shaping of the trees, - and that includes mine - is rather superficial and standardized. That does not mean they are not skilled, nor does it mean that they cannot create true masterpieces of form, nor does it mean that they cannot have the same dedication (if not more) than the first group. I liken that kind of work more like the master stone mason who has the skill to build some magnificent cathedral or something like that. That's why I see craftsmen who call themselves artists or who are called artists as pretentious, and reducing the meaning of what I see as true artists. However!, I also think there is good and bad art and good and bad artists just as there is good and bad bonsai.

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So which is it Michael? Is something art because the creator says it is? like you said or is something art because the creator falls into your rather narrow archetype of what an artist should look like? Like you said? You can't have it both ways. If you don't see them slaving away is it art? Or do you just assume that if YOU haven't seen something before it must be original? or are they just faking it? If they are compelled to produce, but also to make a statement and in order to make that statement they pay attention to how their audience responds and adjust the delivery of their message to maximize its impact, is that art? You don't seem able to grasp the essential contradiction in what your are saying when you say that

MichaelS said:

The artist IS the viewer. The only viewer that matters.

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and also say some media are precluded from being art because, -reasons-.

Now you may be able to reconcile your essential incoherence by retreating into tautology, say by saying Art is what artists produce, then defining artist as someone who produces art but then you wouldn't be able to exclude anything from the category of art, which seems very important to you for some reason.

By the way you told me to look for the truth, its out there. Here's a secret. There is no truth when it comes to art. There is no thing that is art that we could apply a truth to. There are 7+ billion definitions of art out there. One for every man, woman and child on the planet. That is because "art" is a label individuals and groups apply to something as they see fit, not the thing they are labeling. Like "large" or "heavy". Different people and different groups have different criteria by which they apply that label. The label "art" says more about the people applying the label than it does about the work the label is applied to. This is why I can't seem to let this conversation slide. For some reason your insistence that entire categorys of works CANNOT be art strikes me as fundamentally irrational. I don't understand it and the more you try to rationalize it the less it makes sense.

The longer he talks and tries to put words to CRT Screen the less he makes sense. I still wonder if he even owns a tree and isn't just yanking our collective chains. This stoped about him being right or wrong it is now about him actually owning a bonsai at all.

Vance Wood said:

it is now about him actually owning a bonsai at all.

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He shows a lot of pics on his threads

Can't you guys see you're tearing this family apart?!

Stacey and Michael, you're both great artists. Stacey you post beautiful trees and scrolls all the time. Michael, while you don't post as many trees, the ones you do post are gorgeous. Some examples for those who don't think you have trees:

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/procumbens-nana-maintenance-before-after.26297/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/jasminum-agulata.25934/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/golden-elm.25872/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/maple-group-adjustment.24673/

Those are all FANTASTIC examples of Michael's work. Why do people care so much about what is art and what isn't? Are you all really going to leave a forum that appreciates your contributions because of an internet disagreement? Why can't we just set aside our egos and put each other on ignore?

Just my .02.

Bonsai--Ancient Chinese, Japanese Art Form. I believe it's living sculpture.

Vance Wood said:

The longer he talks and tries to put words to CRT Screen the less he makes sense. I still wonder if he even owns a tree and isn't just yanking our collective chains. This stoped about him being right or wrong it is now about him actually owning a bonsai at all.

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Just checking, are you referring to me or MichaelS?

jacob letoile said:

Just checking, are you referring to me or MichaelS?

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Stop being paranoid

Stickroot said:

Where did you get that book?

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I found it on Amazon.
It was recommended highly by @Cadillactaste .
I don't remember the cost but it was something like $30.

just.wing.it said:

I found it on Amazon.
It was recommended highly by @Cadillactaste .
I don't remember the cost but it was something like $30.

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i bought the hardcover years ago - not sure you can find it for 30 bucks anymore.

watchndsky said:

i bought the hardcover years ago - not sure you can find it for 30 bucks anymore.

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Oh wow! Hard cover..... nice!

watchndsky said:

i bought the hardcover years ago - not sure you can find it for 30 bucks anymore.

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I bought the hardcover when I got mine...I'm a book geek. I paid more for it. It's like a coffee table book. LOVE IT!

just.wing.it said:

I found it on Amazon.
It was recommended highly by @Cadillactaste .
I don't remember the cost but it was something like $30.

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I have sold a few of them. You don't see it a lot, just wondered. Good book!

jacob letoile said:

And yet, out of the other side of your mouth you say that


So which is it Michael? Is something art because the creator says it is? like you said or is something art because the creator falls into your rather narrow archetype of what an artist should look like? Like you said? You can't have it both ways. If you don't see them slaving away is it art? Or do you just assume that if YOU haven't seen something before it must be original? or are they just faking it? If they are compelled to produce, but also to make a statement and in order to make that statement they pay attention to how their audience responds and adjust the delivery of their message to maximize its impact, is that art? You don't seem able to grasp the essential contradiction in what your are saying when you say that and also say some media are precluded from being art because, -reasons-.

Now you may be able to reconcile your essential incoherence by retreating into tautology, say by saying Art is what artists produce, then defining artist as someone who produces art but then you wouldn't be able to exclude anything from the category of art, which seems very important to you for some reason.

By the way you told me to look for the truth, its out there. Here's a secret. There is no truth when it comes to art. There is no thing that is art that we could apply a truth to. There are 7+ billion definitions of art out there. One for every man, woman and child on the planet. That is because "art" is a label individuals and groups apply to something as they see fit, not the thing they are labeling. Like "large" or "heavy". Different people and different groups have different criteria by which they apply that label. The label "art" says more about the people applying the label than it does about the work the label is applied to. This is why I can't seem to let this conversation slide. For some reason your insistence that entire categorys of works CANNOT be art strikes me as fundamentally irrational. I don't understand it and the more you try to rationalize it the less it makes sense.

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You too are very bad at constructing sentences. I would like to reply to you and address my ''self contradictory'' views'', but I ask if you could please re-write so I can understand what appears as gobbledigook. It hurts my brain to read what you write. Not because of what you write but the way you try to convey your point. It's like Martian to me. I find myself having to constantly go-back and re-read over and over just to see if I understand just what the hell you are on about. If I have to do that, I lose interest very quickly. Try again. And try to keep it simple. Maybe try it in point form. That might work!

Vance Wood said:

The longer he talks and tries to put words to CRT Screen the less he makes sense. I still wonder if he even owns a tree and isn't just yanking our collective chains. This stoped about him being right or wrong it is now about him actually owning a bonsai at all.

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Yet another mental giant. This is the third time you bring up this point and in the third separate thread. The facts have also been pointed out twice to you and now for a third time. Your powers of memory are approaching a critical stage. Your powers of deduction seem to have faded long ago. Not much left is there Vance.

MichaelS said:

It hurts my brain to read what you write.

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No surprises there.