[FL] Any recommendations for yamadori hunting, stuff that can handle extreme cut-backs?

SU2

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I'm near the 9a/9b line on the gulf coast of FL, have spent the past year collecting the few types of local plants I knew could handle being hard-chopped & transplanted (bougies, crepe myrtle, hibiscus) I've stuck with the species I know handle it because of so much wasted time&effort with failures of other species I was simply trial/erroring, anyways my collection is extremely lop-sided in terms of species and I'd like to increase the variety but don't know what to be attempting!

I'm very partial to *large* specimen (3" thick trunks is about the smallest I like to go for), so am hoping to learn what trees(or larger vines) in my area (whether wild and found in the woods like oaks, or just common 'yard-adori' like the crepe myrtles) are able to handle being hard-chopped in such an agressive manner ie cut-back to hard-wood, frequently w/o any foliage being left. My list of attempted species has way more fails than successes :(

I'm also interested in any tips on actually searching/finding plants outside of landscapes, I'm *always* on the lookout but most of my specimen are 'yardadori' not truly wild finds, I've yet to find any good specimen just growing in the woods (and I've done tons of walks looking, found two worthwhile junipers once, only one is [barely]surviving now), I'm sure I'm walking right by specimen that could be chopped-back to be pre-bonsai but I just don't know what does/doesn't handle this and trial&error with larger specimen is extremely wasteful!

Thanks for any insights on this, and happy hunting!!
 

BrianBay9

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Don't know your area very well but.....Privet, any elm, bald cypress,
 

choppychoppy

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There is a lot of stuff but just because it will 'survive' a big chop just remember a big ole chop scar isn't really the most desired thing. They can be hidden etc. but what I would look for is material that people have been pre-bonsaiing for years in their yards. Anyone can grow/trunk chop a deciduous tree or ficus but look for people that have junipers or even small pines they have just been pruning back for years. Also some of the flowing trees that grow slower some folks have kept trimmed hard. Shopping centers are good for stuff like this.
 

SU2

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A lot of tropicals can take the pain... ficus in particular.
Sadly, my first attempt at a real yamadori hard-chop was with a ficus (benjamina), had a ~6' tall topiary with gorgeous nebari, I hard-chopped it to ~10" and watched it slowly die over 4mo (learning only after the fact that that particular variety of ficus does not tolerate hard-chops), and with how much variety there is within ficus I'd be very grateful for some specific, common varieties that are known to handle aggressive cut-backs to hardwood / no foliage!

Don't know your area very well but.....Privet, any elm, bald cypress,
Thanks, just that is very very appreciated, that just doubled the varieties I can look for (are they all comparably vigorous? If not and if not a hassle for you, could you list them in order of vigor/stress-resistance in the context of heavy cut-backs and subsequent back-budding?

There is a lot of stuff but just because it will 'survive' a big chop just remember a big ole chop scar isn't really the most desired thing. They can be hidden etc. but what I would look for is material that people have been pre-bonsaiing for years in their yards. Anyone can grow/trunk chop a deciduous tree or ficus but look for people that have junipers or even small pines they have just been pruning back for years. Also some of the flowing trees that grow slower some folks have kept trimmed hard. Shopping centers are good for stuff like this.
I know big chop scars are undesirable, but as you say they can be hidden or better yet they can be almost eliminated, I've seen sooo many examples of powertooling bark/trunks to create taper and get rid of scars, it's like having a blank canvas in a way if you're going to be doing extensive trunk carving (which I am)
That said I do like the idea of looking for already-bonsai'd stuff but I do that already and have only seen a handful of things that fit the bill for me (and all of them were clearly tended plants, not stuff the person would easily part with. Have never found the oft-mentioned "tree that's just been properly pruned for ages and is ideal to transplant" sitting in a yard or along a path :/ Honestly it's been hard enough finding large stock material of the 'rough' variety although surely that's as much an issue of my short list of 'known good candidates' as it is what's truly available.
 

BrianBay9

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Thanks, just that is very very appreciated, that just doubled the varieties I can look for (are they all comparably vigorous? If not and if not a hassle for you, could you list them in order of vigor/stress-resistance in the context of heavy cut-backs and subsequent back-budding?

I would say privet is the toughest. This privet was ripped from a hedge for a construction job, left on the curb for two days before I found it, cut back to zero foliage and is popping out all over 6 weeks later. Elm are nearly as tough. I'm less familiar with abusing bald cypress, but I hear they can take a lot.
 

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flyinmanatee

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I don't know if this an option for SU2 but what about the idea of hard chopping this summer and maybe collecting say ..next spring? Privet,Buttonwood,Ficus here in FL for example, thanks.
 

SU2

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I would say privet is the toughest. This privet was ripped from a hedge for a construction job, left on the curb for two days before I found it, cut back to zero foliage and is popping out all over 6 weeks later. Elm are nearly as tough. I'm less familiar with abusing bald cypress, but I hear they can take a lot.
Thanks a ton for posting that, I looked at it and thought "no that's ligustrum!", didn't realize privet=ligustrum! Wow yeah that seriously opens up a TON of opportunity for me as that's an incredibly common shrub/hedge/tree in my area (easily on 1/4-->1/6 of all residential lots in my area, maybe more!) I was, sadly, too late one day when they tore out a huge row of established ligustrum hedging, I got there as they were packing up / truck loaded with the torn-out shrubs and they weren't interested in letting me go through it, was easily 5+ very large specimen!!


Seagrape from seed in 6 months to 2 years in the ground [ use a colander ] will surprise
you.
Try one, see what happens.
Good Day
Anthony

Hrrrmmmm, I like seagrape but always figured its leaves' size was too large to use it as a bonsai?

(and kudos to using colanders!! I put most of my specimen in homemade wooden boxes (for aesthetics mostly) but have since switched a large % to colanders, have also done 'experiments' where I had specimen (marigolds, not trees, but still) in colanders and regular containers and the colanders' specimen were significantly larger/thriving better!!)

I don't know if this an option for SU2 but what about the idea of hard chopping this summer and maybe collecting say ..next spring? Privet,Buttonwood,Ficus here in FL for example, thanks.

It's rarely an option for me but sometimes is, can you give me examples of trees that I'd need to do this for? Like, are there specimen that won't take the type of transplants I'm talking about in this thread, but will grow back from hard-chopping only if left in-ground?
 

Anthony

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@SU2

Well a seagrape at 5 inch to 6 inch trunk and I understand on your side they defoliate 3 to 4 times a year.
We are working on another technique but it is too soon to show.
Try one, and come here and show.
Good Day
Anthony

* If you start with a seed you can easily control the cuts/healing, so imagine a stout seagrape at 6" and
only 15 /18 inches tall with 6 to 8 branches.
And you can go larger trunk wise say 8 to 10 " and pop up in height to 24"

Not the trunk you were looking for but imagine ----------
It was recently fattened and now being re-branched
Found being pulled out to sea by the high tide ---------- saved.

IBC seagrape.jpg
 

SU2

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@SU2

Not the trunk you were looking for but imagine ----------
say what?! That photo is exactly the type of thing I'm interested in, in fact it's a fantastic example of the material I look for - short&thick trunks like that are my thing!

You mention starting with seed but the one pictured is a yamadori, I'm far more interested in getting already-thick trunks and am curious why you'd recommend starting from seed if they seem fine with being hardchopped & transplanted?(at least the picture/text leads me to believe that's the case!)
 

SU2

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I would say privet is the toughest. This privet was ripped from a hedge for a construction job, left on the curb for two days before I found it, cut back to zero foliage and is popping out all over 6 weeks later. Elm are nearly as tough. I'm less familiar with abusing bald cypress, but I hear they can take a lot.
Sorry to keep questioning you here lol but is it fair to say privets are about as hardy as bougies are? What you described sounds like something a bougie can handle (and it's the only specie I'd known that could!)
 

BrianBay9

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Sorry to keep questioning you here lol but is it fair to say privets are about as hardy as bougies are? What you described sounds like something a bougie can handle (and it's the only specie I'd known that could!)

Sorry, I've never collected a bougainvilla (nor learned to spell it apparently). But I would never give up on a privet as long as you can scratch the bark and see green cambium.
 

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Well my 2 bob's worth would be to check out what Australian natives are about.
A quick check of a couple of lists shows that Acacia auriculiformis, Casuarina equisetifolia, Casuarina Glauca, Schefflera actinophylla and Melaleuca quinquenervia are all on FL invasive species lists so they should be around abouts somewhere and are mostly good for summer collecting(check each one first).

I would be guessing many home gardens would have things like Bottle brushes, Acacias and if you are lucky Banksias which are all good choices.
You guys probably have Eucalyptus and Corymbias about and possibly even Brachychitons, all of these if you can find them would be fine but look for smaller ones.

 

flyinmanatee

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Well my 2 bob's worth would be to check out what Australian natives are about.
A quick check of a couple of lists shows that Acacia auriculiformis, Casuarina equisetifolia, Casuarina Glauca, Schefflera actinophylla and Melaleuca quinquenervia are all on FL invasive species lists so they should be around abouts somewhere and are mostly good for summer collecting(check each one first).

I would be guessing many home gardens would have things like Bottle brushes, Acacias and if you are lucky Banksias which are all good choices.
You guys probably have Eucalyptus and Corymbias about and possibly even Brachychitons, all of these if you can find them would be fine but look for smaller ones.
 

flyinmanatee

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Wish I had a nickel for every Melaleuca in Lee County. Interesting how they are held in such high regard on the Aussie bonsai site. I'll have to check out some of those others, thanks starfox.
 

Starfox

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Wish I had a nickel for every Melaleuca in Lee County. Interesting how they are held in such high regard on the Aussie bonsai site. I'll have to check out some of those others, thanks starfox.

Well they are a native over there and are the sort of trees that invoke memories of trips to the bush as a kid and what not, I imagine every country is a bit like that with their natives really.
That said they make great naturalistic bonsai, the bark is very interesting, they back bud like crazy, are tough to kill(although I have), have pretty flowers and generally are well suited for bonsai.

You can see how well they do in your climate too, I would say they are at least worth trying if you can find one.
 

Anthony

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Hee hee, a while ago we discovered that you could take a seedling and get 1 to 3 inch trunks in a year or 2 or 3
and place the branches where wanted them and the wounds were very small.

If you could draw it would be even easier. Just take a seedling, wire into a broadly curved shape, to allow for
the thickening that comes with growing, most trees build inside the curve and straighten, especially to the thickness
you want. { see Elm Mallsai with those weird curves, imagine ]

Because of ground growing even before the colander use, one could get large trunks and the first six branches
if you wanted.
No need to look for big trunks in nature, just growem.

Can you also try a Hackberry [ Celtis ] ? or a Chinese elm [ Mallsai ]
See example below;

If you can grow the Willow leaf ficus, they thicken in the pot, in 1" of soil, just use a 3 foot extension branch.
Good Day
Anthony

This is a miracle, mother died in the fridge and a root shot back up -------- colander regrowth.
From Louisiana.
Trunk will be 3 inches when it is finished.

You can break your back with bonsai at 18 and beyond inches. Be careful,please.

hac.jpg

Colander in use Hackberry

hack col.jpg
 

SU2

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Sorry, I've never collected a bougainvilla (nor learned to spell it apparently). But I would never give up on a privet as long as you can scratch the bark and see green cambium.
That's HUGE for me, privets are incredibly common around here (not wild, but they're an incredibly common landscaping shrub, one of the most popular) Is privet=lagustrum or are there variations/cultivars I should be aware of? If not, and I can just hard-chop and transplant thick specimen w/ those leaves, my first step isn't even to start looking it's to go stock-up on more substrate!!
(and re your comparison, I've read (on Wigerts' site) that he's found thick trunks that were day-old, out for trash, that he successfully rooted. I've never tried rooting one that had dehydrated a day but you can root hardwood no problem, these are 2wks old today (the pic was taken yesterday and, as bougies do, all growth shown here is easily 1/5-1/4 larger today than yesterday!

19700514_213911.jpg

Am really just interested in the left-most and right-most specimen but of the 3 center ones, two have started throwing shoots (and one isn't likely to make it) These are all just hardwood cuts from center branches of a gigantic bougainvillea stand, they got ~15min soaks in IBA solution (unsure rate, just poured iba powder in a cup and swirled it til it was kind of homogeneous lol) They're definitely some of the easiest rooters I've ever worked with (and using coconut water should be significantly more effective than IBA!)
 

SU2

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Well my 2 bob's worth would be to check out what Australian natives are about.
A quick check of a couple of lists shows that Acacia auriculiformis, Casuarina equisetifolia, Casuarina Glauca, Schefflera actinophylla and Melaleuca quinquenervia are all on FL invasive species lists so they should be around abouts somewhere and are mostly good for summer collecting(check each one first).

I would be guessing many home gardens would have things like Bottle brushes, Acacias and if you are lucky Banksias which are all good choices.
You guys probably have Eucalyptus and Corymbias about and possibly even Brachychitons, all of these if you can find them would be fine but look for smaller ones.
Thanks a ton for the reply :) When you say to look for smaller ones, how small are you referring to? I know it's considered distasteful to some but I'm just really interested in larger specimen and in getting them by cutting-back (not growing-out), are any of those specimen good candidates for privet/bougie/myrtle hardiness when it comes to cutting-back to hardwood-only (no foliage)?

And you mention eucalyptus....kind of off-topic but I've been unable to find a picture of a bonsai'd eucalyptus rainbow tree, which could be one of the most amazing specimen on the planet!

Also thnx for mentioning aus (and invasive specie in general as that usually implies real hardiness!!), good leads!
 
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