Show and Tell?

I continued working the tree for some time, mostly in confusion because of the large amount of seemingly contradictory information about training JBP. After I began working with Boon, a plan began to form in my mind. I would shorten the trunk without removing anything. It worked well, although I understand now the real flaw of this tree: its trunk is too long.

Here is the tree as of about a month ago, shortly after repotting. It will be ready to candle the first week of July. All the candles will be removed because they are all the same strength. But the next big job for this tree will be to shorten the trunk even more drastically. I will fold the trunk over on itself to put the crown on top of the roots, emphasizing the exposed roots and minimizing the length of the trunk. Stay tuned.

I had already posted this very type of thing on my blog with regards to my Siberian elm.

Siberian Elm Development

Will Heath said:

"And as a more pointed aside, the sense of pride that one has never paid more than $XX for a tree is doing as much to spread mediocrity as any whippersnapper who doesn't toe the line."
- From a comment by you on Vance's article.
Walter stated above that both Lilacs were purchased for 25.00 each, was he spreading mediocrity?

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Hardly...has Walter ever shown pride that he has never paid more than $25.00 for a piece of stock? You should really read the words you argue past.

"Where American bonsai artists are achieving greatness, it is because they have forsaken the 40 year old regime of "Master Weekend" and moved beyond the chopped-up nursery stock mentality that was cutting edge back then simply because nothing else was available at the time."
- Same source.

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I stand by that statement. It was written to urge others to go beyond that "cheap is best" mentality. That thought process denigrates collected trees and prebonsai, which is what you say you are against.

"Are there great new bonsai artists coming on the stage all the time? I guarantee they aren't working with nursery stock, they are working with prebonsai or yamadori. Europe or the U.S., it doesn't really matter. Collecting primarily from local commercial nurseries will keep American bonsai where it has been for the last 40 years."
- from a thread here at Bnut.

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I have said in every thread like this, that the proper use of quality nursery stock is a valuable part of bonsai. You seem to want to try to polarize every argument with extreme positions. My point is that the old way of pride in cheapness is limiting bonsai. I have even said that Vance has limited himself by working almost exclusively with nursery stock. Doesn't mean he doesn't get something out of what he does, it just means that he could also do more.

What is it that keeps us clinging to our pasts? Sometimes it is fear of the unknown. I know enthusiasts who will not make a single cut on a single branch because they are paralyzed with fear. They need to find another hobby. Like skydiving. Or collecting shoes. Or founding bonsai forums.

I've posted a couple of my trees. Yet you never seem to get around to posting any of yours.

Chris Johnston said:

Hardly...has Walter ever shown pride that he has never paid more than $25.00 for a piece of stock? You should really read the words you argue past.



I stand by that statement. It was written to urge others to go beyond that "cheap is best" mentality. That thought process denigrates collected trees and prebonsai, which is what you say you are against.



I have said in every thread like this, that the proper use of quality nursery stock is a valuable part of bonsai. You seem to want to try to polarize every argument with extreme positions. My point is that the old way of pride in cheapness is limiting bonsai. I have even said that Vance has limited himself by working almost exclusively with nursery stock. Doesn't mean he doesn't get something out of what he does, it just means that he could also do more.

What is it that keeps us clinging to our pasts? Sometimes it is fear of the unknown. I know enthusiasts who will not make a single cut on a single branch because they are paralyzed with fear. They need to find another hobby. Like skydiving. Or collecting shoes. Or founding bonsai forums.

I've posted a couple of my trees. Yet you never seem to get around to posting any of yours.

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My, my . . . If you all are going to fight like this all the time then you ought to just go ahead and get married.

Yawn,

So back to the topic?

From my recent posts one could assume that it is well possible to find outstanding material in nurseries and even create world class trees from it within a reasonable time span. Well, the examples show that it is possible. I went back to my files to find some more good examples. Among around 300 eligible bonsai the ones I showed are the only good ones. So the truth is that if you want to have real good bonsai in the end, like even world class, then you better go to pre-bonsai stock or much better even, go to collected material. Around 90 % of my better trees are from collected material.

Of course, not everybody wants and should try to compete against top trees. But if you have resonable ambition my suggestiojn is to go for the very best material tht you can afford. And this usually will be collected stuff.

Most bonsai practitioners are on a learning curve. What is good for you today will not be good enough in a couple fo years. So if you want to build a stock of real good material to work with in future years, you will have to asseminate trees that are beyond your skills at the moment. When the tree is ready you will hopefully be ready too. If you are in a hurry then you will have to go to those who did the preparation for you. don't be surprised that well established outstading material costs twice to five times as much as very similar material not well established and prepared. This is true of collected stuff and also of pre-bonsai stock from nurseries. You pay for the time. But then don't be surprised again that it is almsot impossible to find the right stuff even if you really want to pay for it. It just is not there, because in all that time for preparation someone else came around and got it.

To take that a bit further Walter,If one looks at the "nursery material" that you posted,one will notice that it was not regular ol' nursery stock that proponents of nursery crawling are speaking of.

The juniper was field grown for upwards of 50 years.Plenty of time to naturally age.The lilacs were from a flower producer....much like the grapevines we see being collected in California.They had outlived their usefulness as productive shrub/trees.They were probably pretty old and had been repeatedly pruned back.

They had character built in.That is something you won't find in most "nursery stock".

andy

Walter Pall said:

But then don't be surprised again that it is almsot impossible to find the right stuff even if you really want to pay for it. It just is not there, because in all that time for preparation someone else came around and got it.

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... and that is about the size of it too

Vance, I'm curious about the shimpakus you have posted. I've shopped at alot of nurseries, but I've never seen a shimpaku at a regular garden nursery, only at nurseries that sell bonsai or pre-bonsai. Do the regular nurseries in your area commonly stock shimpaku?

- bob

agraham said:

To take that a bit further Walter,If one looks at the "nursery material" that you posted,one will notice that it was not regular ol' nursery stock that proponents of nursery crawling are speaking of.

The juniper was field grown for upwards of 50 years.Plenty of time to naturally age.The lilacs were from a flower producer....much like the grapevines we see being collected in California.They had outlived their usefulness as productive shrub/trees.They were probably pretty old and had been repeatedly pruned back.

They had character built in.That is something you won't find in most "nursery stock".

andy

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Good point Andy! However one needs to remember that not all folks acquire their material from the so called box stores neither, nor do all nurseries grow their stock in containers. Two nyrseries close by in my neck of the woods sell field grown stock, while another is strictly potted stock.

But as Walter mentioned, one needs to be on the lookout constantly for good raw material, and when a "find" is seen, snatched before anyone else sees it. The latter remark receives alot of flack from my better half. "Please don't tell me it followed you home" Yes it did (sheepishly) ...

I recently acquired a Linden, far from being anything at the moment $9.95 CD one inch trunk with low branches in the right place for development, and the nebari wasn't too bad. I asked the guy at the feed store if he had a set of pruners, he said what for? I said I want to chop it right here LOL. I gave him the cutting, scarred the bark and told him to plant it in the ground, free tree if it lives. Anyway the tree is in my grow bed for future consideration. The tree is doing fine and producing shoots galore

Moral of this tale: I was at the feed store buying dog food of all things , one never knows when a situation will smile at you, as Walter says, ya need to be prepared.

Vance, I'm curious about the shimpakus you have posted. I've shopped at alot of nurseries, but I've never seen a shimpaku at a regular garden nursery, only at nurseries that sell bonsai or pre-bonsai. Do the regular nurseries in your area commonly stock shimpaku?

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Good point and observation Bob! I have crawled my fair share of nurseries (garden centers) and never have seen shimpakus. On the rare occasion curly junipers a close look a like.

Tachigi said:

Good point and observation Bob! I have crawled my fair share of nurseries (garden centers) and never have seen shimpakus. On the rare occasion curly junipers a close look a like.

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I have seen them 3 years ago, although the nursery denied ever having them. How else would someone who does not speak latin would remember Juniperus Chinensis var. Sargentii. It was a toss up between one of the Shimpakus and the Hinokis, if only I knew the difference then.

After looking at Walters examples of nursery material I can only come to the conclusion that what separates a yamadori from nursery material is a sign in the vicinity that says “nursery“. My understanding was that the whole discussion was based on the kind of material Vance works with, wich is “regular nursery material”? It would be stupid to argue with the point Vance made that collected trees need a period of recovery in comparison to the RNM that can be worked right away. However, I will stick my chin out and say that I have raw collected stock that, IMHNO, I would pay a lot more for than some of the worked trees shown here (no offense, Vance, for real!). After all, Isn’t the whole point of collecting to get trees that are way better (as in “quality and worth”) than the “regular nursery material“?

All in all, it is my firm belief that a collected tree will make a greater bonsai than RNM sooner with above in mind. In that sense I will achieve my goals or dreams much quicker, and enjoy the way there much more, with collected material.

This has indeed been a fun and educational thread. I just wanted to say that, I love it when ideas are bounced around and knowledge shakes loose and falls around our feet.


Will

cbobgo said:

Vance, I'm curious about the shimpakus you have posted. I've shopped at alot of nurseries, but I've never seen a shimpaku at a regular garden nursery, only at nurseries that sell bonsai or pre-bonsai. Do the regular nurseries in your area commonly stock shimpaku?

- bob

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Occassionally you can find them; more so recently. However several years ago I ran into a nursery that had quite a few of them. I cleaned them out for a series of work shops that I was doing. This was not a bonsai nursery. One of the shimps I showed was purchased from a bonsai nursery but the material was no better than the others I mentioned above, and none of them was field grown.

No said:

After looking at Walters examples of nursery material I can only come to the conclusion that what separates a yamadori from nursery material is a sign in the vicinity that says “nursery“. My understanding was that the whole discussion was based on the kind of material Vance works with, wich is “regular nursery material”? It would be stupid to argue with the point Vance made that collected trees need a period of recovery in comparison to the RNM that can be worked right away. However, I will stick my chin out and say that I have raw collected stock that, IMHNO, I would pay a lot more for than some of the worked trees shown here (no offense, Vance, for real!). After all, Isn’t the whole point of collecting to get trees that are way better (as in “quality and worth”) than the “regular nursery material“?

All in all, it is my firm belief that a collected tree will make a greater bonsai than RNM sooner with above in mind. In that sense I will achieve my goals or dreams much quicker, and enjoy the way there much more, with collected material.

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Yes that's true---if you can find good collected material; and there is the rub. I must have said this a half a dozen times in this post but I'll say it again: Most collected material I have been exposed to here in Michigan and at some conventions I have attended are not marginally better than the material I can find in any nursery. You compare those collected trees to the collected trees Walter pictures, and Hans Pictures and a host of others, one is art and the other is expensive kindling. Just because a tree is collected does not necessarily mean it is going to be a world class bonsai. You run a good piece of collected material past me and get out of the way.

No said:

I will stick my chin out and say that I have raw collected stock that, IMHNO, I would pay a lot more for than some of the worked trees shown here (no offense, Vance, for real!). .

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You say you have this stock? Let's see some of it, no offense, No Its Not,(user name not to be confused with insult or substantive evaluation) for real.

Pardon me butting in but , shouldn't one also state that not all nurseries are equal and even in the box stores their stock varies greatly from area to area. I have visited a couple of nurseries in So Cal that looked like bonsai nurseries trhat noone had prepared the material. Good stock ( as I know it ) everywhere. Out here in no mans land if you find decent stock anywhere it verges on miraculous. I've posted the few pieces I've obtained locally and been basically laughed off the web ( deservidly so I might add ) so I'm relagated to speciality bonsai nurseries on the web. I imagine this is true of many beginners and is a contributor to the beginner never becoming a journeyman.

PS pardon me if this has already been discussed

As offered, and with the risk of making a fool of myself (if I haven't done that already)...
This kind of material (although far, FAR from "world class"-stock) is way better than any I can find at a regular nursery.

What in your eye is so special about this tree, and what makes you believe you might not find something of equal value in a nursery? Is it the trunk, the bark, or the mystique of it being an old tree?

Below is one of my Mugos. It has a nice bark and an interesting trunk, I believe if I had told every one I dug this tree out of the mountains I might be believed. No you are not making a fool of yourself, if anything I am on the edge of doing that but that's never stoped me before.

Might as well add another Mugo, same old nursery junk.