[FL] Want to better understand *when* the best time(s) are for hard-chops/prune and wild-collections

While I'd been mostly collecting bougies, which can be done with success in our winter (FL gulf coast zone 9a/9b line), I'm starting to get a wider variety of stuff and am hoping to learn when the best time is for:

- heavy pruning of an established, healthy plant,

- 'hard-chopping' a large/tall specimen to a small pre-bonsai, and

- collecting/transplanting yamadori (w/ and w/o foliage- am unsure if it makes a difference whether they're just stumps or if they're sporting a couple branches w/ leaves)

Am also interested in whether anyone's found some FL yamadori that require "two-stepping" ie doing the hard-chop, and the transplant/collection, at two separate times (for instance, I've tried to collect countless oaks, both Live Oak and Laurel Oak, and never once got one to survive, to the point I was almost convinced they couldn't be transplanted! Right now I've got 'experiment' oaks, naturally-growing on my property, that I've hard-chopped and left in-ground, in ~a month I'm going to saw a circle around them in the ground to sever roots & encourage the roots to branch, then at a later time actually dig it out - hopefully getting my first successful Oak tree!!)


The main species that I'm aiming for right now are hawthorns privets and a couple others, want to build my non-tropical collection up!! Thanks for any info/advice/thoughts on this subject, I get almost all my material from the wild (or 'yardadori') and am barely at a year in this hobby, want to be sure I'm on-point with everything when summer starts winding-down into autumn

I've only collected haws in the spring in Michigan so I don't know how reagent my information will be for you.
I cut them to size in the ground. Height is not a factor. I'm looking at the first 8 inches on down to the dirt. I then dig it out right then. The last one I used a reciprocating saw and didn't use a shovel at all.
I then get it home and wash out all existing field soil. Cut the roots back. All downward growing roots are cut off too. I then place it in a colander,fill with bonsai soil,water and let develop. I get the luxury of being able to place them right out in full sun. It isn't so intense here.
They pop buds right out if the cut just like elms so there is no rechopping. Just growing. They grow intensely. And I've heard it's hard to get them to regenerate roots but mine fills the pot in a year to the point right now the water just pools on top for a while then sinks in. These are also thirsty trees in my experience. It's the first of all of my trees to get droopy when it needs water. About a month after collection. I have some pictures somewhere of the roots all bare and washed off. I'll look. 3 years later. Taken this summer. Thank God it got passed up by the vole assault from 2 winters ago. Maybe 3 years out from being shown for the first time.
And I'm an unglazed simple pot kind of guy.
No flowers yet and I'm not really caring if it gets them or not.
Even though it has red ones. I rarely see red flowers on these trees but there's a grove near here.

Forgot to add.
I collect all deciduous trees in early spring as the buds are swelling. Up here that's a very short window of opportunity.
I've collected elms,hornbeam and Hawthorne over the years with great success digging at this time.
@Zach Smith will be able to tell you the best window of opportunity for your area though.

Collecting material for bonsai is a complex subject, as you've probably surmised. Most deciduous species do best when collected during winter, are chopped and root-pruned hard, have the top chop(s) sealed, and get potted in a free-draining mix. I use exclusively a cordless reciprocating saw and a strong young man for the pushing and pulling part (if you're young the strong young man is optional). There are some species that can be collected after first flush, such as Sweetgum, American elm and Cedar elm. Oaks, excluding Live oak, can be lifted toward summer. Hawthorns can be lifted also in fall. Bald cypress can be lifted in July.

One thing to keep in mind is that the lifting process must be followed by a recovery period that will vary from species to species and specimen to specimen. This you will learn through experience and killing trees. Limit the major things you do to a tree to one per year. It generally takes two or three years for your collected tree to get accustomed to container life.

Good luck!

Zach

Zach Smith said:

I use exclusively a cordless reciprocating saw and a strong young man for the pushing and pulling part (if you're young the strong young man is optional). There are some species that can be collected after first flush, such as Sweetgum, American elm and Cedar elm. Oaks, excluding Live oak, can be lifted toward summer. Hawthorns can be lifted also in fall. Bald cypress can be lifted in July.

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Bald cypress in July?!? Oh, man. Where I go, I've got snakes everywhere. And the bugs! Not for me. I go in late January or early February. It's better if the sky is slightly overcast and the high is only going to be 50°. Sometimes, all it takes is a bright shaft of sunlight to wake something from its winter slumber.

I like to use a reciprocating saw as well. I have a nice Dewalt. The real champions are the Diablo pruning blades. 12-inches long and 5 teeth per inch. Cuts roots like buttah.

I also bring an 18" Corona pruning saw because I'm collecting from a flooded area. Some roots are just too deep.

As for strong young men, if they're in short supply, I use a come-along and 5/8" nylon rope.

Thanks for posting your collecting technique. I enjoy comparing notes.

When you dig a tree, how much of the root mass do you collect? I like to cut the root mass to about 6-inches deep because that's how deep the growing tubs are, and the roots are caked in clay. Damned clay makes it heavy to carry.

And what's the soil like where you dig? Is the area flooded, mucky... ???

BillsBayou said:

Bald cypress in July?!? Oh, man. Where I go, I've got snakes everywhere. And the bugs! Not for me. I go in late January or early February. It's better if the sky is slightly overcast and the high is only going to be 50°. Sometimes, all it takes is a bright shaft of sunlight to wake something from its winter slumber.

I like to use a reciprocating saw as well. I have a nice Dewalt. The real champions are the Diablo pruning blades. 12-inches long and 5 teeth per inch. Cuts roots like buttah.

I also bring an 18" Corona pruning saw because I'm collecting from a flooded area. Some roots are just too deep.

As for strong young men, if they're in short supply, I use a come-along and 5/8" nylon rope.

Thanks for posting your collecting technique. I enjoy comparing notes.

When you dig a tree, how much of the root mass do you collect? I like to cut the root mass to about 6-inches deep because that's how deep the growing tubs are, and the roots are caked in clay. Damned clay makes it heavy to carry.

And what's the soil like where you dig? Is the area flooded, mucky... ???

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Hey, I said cypress could be collected in July, not that I'm dumb enough to go out and do it routinely. I did collect one casually several years ago during a water elm dig to see if it would work and it did. Other than that I felt on stories told by others.

I get a root mass about 6-8" worth from the trunk base and a little more than you said on the bottom just because I'm going to saw it flat at home to go in the 6" tub. Use the Diablo 12" pruning blade. BC wood is nice and soft. I only collect from areas continually in shallow water. That's ideal.

I didn't "felt" on stories told by others, my cellphone felt like that was the word I meant to use. I've heard of others collecting BC in summer. It apparently works. One big impediment to summer collecting in the swamps is overgrowth of everything. The snakes love that. I do not.

M. Frary said:

Forgot to add.
I collect all deciduous trees in early spring as the buds are swelling. Up here that's a very short window of opportunity.
I've collected elms,hornbeam and Hawthorne over the years with great success digging at this time.
@Zach Smith will be able to tell you the best window of opportunity for your area though.

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Thanks a lot, I'm hearing that a lot that 'dormancy' is the time but that it's best to wait til the end of dormancy, even up to spring buds setting (here in FL I obviously don't have that short time-window concern, I can collect certain things in our coldest month with success!)

And thanks for the walk-through on your procedure, very similar to how I approach only I've yet to put one in a colander (and I do use colanders with some of my bonsai), would love to see the roots if you come across the pic! And re un-glazed I think it looks better, I like my rough wooden boxes they just seem more 'natural', the same applies to your un-glazed pot it has a natural 'stone' look/feel, if it were glazed it becomes artificial and clashes with the tree to a degree (IMO, of course - this is obviously an entirely objective area here! Am currently in the process of designing my first concrete project, a container/slab hybrid for a cascade tree, am going to try to make it look like stone as best I can, am sure it'll come out like crap but will just practice and after a few I'm sure I'll be able to make respectable, unique containers for my larger yammas!)

[edit- and yeah re flowers I'm same as well, one of my bougies is going into flowering and, while they're beautiful, I just wish it would've stayed in vegetative growth!! At least I'll learn what color flowers the specimen has!]

Zach Smith said:

Collecting material for bonsai is a complex subject, as you've probably surmised. Most deciduous species do best when collected during winter, are chopped and root-pruned hard, have the top chop(s) sealed, and get potted in a free-draining mix.

Click to expand...

So you're for doing this during 'dormancy'- if you were to err one way or the other, would it be early-dormancy (fall) or late-dormancy when buds are starting to set? The latter is what I'm seeing recommended the most (though winter is recommended in many other places as well) Luckily we hardly have a 'winter' here, this is my weather it's perfect for growing:

Zach Smith said:

I use exclusively a cordless reciprocating saw and a strong young man for the pushing and pulling part (if you're young the strong young man is optional). There are some species that can be collected after first flush, such as Sweetgum, American elm and Cedar elm.

Click to expand...

Yeah I use a wired one when needed for thick, downward (tap-type) roots, luckily I am that strong young man so I'm pretty good at excavating Re collecting after first flush, that'd worry the hell out of me....putting a plant into shock (like collecting yammas) wreaks havoc on supple/fresh growth, I recently collected a bougie that'd been hard-chopped ~1.5-2wks prior, had ~5-10" shoots, and I collected it as immaculately as possible, planted as gently/best as I could muster, and it was a nightmare keeping those shoots alive as it adapted to the container/transplantation....had to defoliate them 2/3 of the way over ~1.5wks until it stabilized, would sooner collect something upon the hard-chop instead of 2-stepping it, if 2-stepping I'd want the growth to harden-off before collection!

Zach Smith said:

Oaks, excluding Live oak, can be lifted toward summer. Hawthorns can be lifted also in fall. Bald cypress can be lifted in July.

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When for live oaks? Live and Laurel are the two most common trees in my area, but I've never gotten one out of the ground to survive - oddly enough though, just yesterday I cut-back one on the edge of my property, it's about 1.25" wide and I clear-cut it at maybe 5-6" off the ground, am planning to let it grow-out shoots in-ground for a while, probably start using a handsaw at some point to selectively sever part of the roots (just a portion at a time, so it can heal and start branching / getting a dense root-mat, as I suspect it'd be mostly long roots reaching-out!), and the plan is that by spring I'll have a stump that's got several strong primary shoots, a root system that's established denser / closer roots, and hopefully excavate the thing w/o killing it!!

Zach Smith said:

One thing to keep in mind is that the lifting process must be followed by a recovery period that will vary from species to species and specimen to specimen. This you will learn through experience and killing trees. Limit the major things you do to a tree to one per year. It generally takes two or three years for your collected tree to get accustomed to container life.

Good luck!

Zach

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I know they've got a recovery time *but* i'm having trouble picturing 2-3yrs! I know you say it varies, but for instance w/ bougies (my favorite / most plentiful) they seem to take to their containers incredibly quickly, it's even common practice (adamaskwhy, wigerts etc would agree) to put them right into full sun and fertilize upon getting them potted..of course bougies aren't even true trees they're tropical vines from brazil so I guess it varies tremendously!!

Thanks for the info, and the well-wishes, hope your nursery/endeavours are going well!!

Zach Smith said:

I only collect from areas continually in shallow water. That's ideal.

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Why is that ideal? We've got swampy areas all around where I live (right by the gulf of mexico in FL on zone 9a/9b line), have never ventured into the marshes I've always figured that anything that's used to growing in always-saturated conditions wasn't transferable to containers!!

SU2 said:

So you're for doing this during 'dormancy'- if you were to err one way or the other, would it be early-dormancy (fall) or late-dormancy when buds are starting to set? The latter is what I'm seeing recommended the most (though winter is recommended in many other places as well) Luckily we hardly have a 'winter' here, this is my weather it's perfect for growing:
View attachment 158883



Yeah I use a wired one when needed for thick, downward (tap-type) roots, luckily I am that strong young man so I'm pretty good at excavating Re collecting after first flush, that'd worry the hell out of me....putting a plant into shock (like collecting yammas) wreaks havoc on supple/fresh growth, I recently collected a bougie that'd been hard-chopped ~1.5-2wks prior, had ~5-10" shoots, and I collected it as immaculately as possible, planted as gently/b est as I could muster, and it was a nightmare keeping those shoots alive as it adapted to the container/transplantation....had to defoliate them 2/3 of the way over ~1.5wks until it stabilized, would sooner collect something upon the hard-chop instead of 2-stepping it, if 2-stepping I'd want the growth to harden-off before collection!



When for live oaks? Live and Laurel are the two most common trees in my area, but I've never gotten one out of the ground to survive - oddly enough though, just yesterday I cut-back one on the edge of my property, it's about 1.25" wide and I clear-cut it at maybe 5-6" off the ground, am planning to let it grow-out shoots in-ground for a while, probably start using a handsaw at some point to selectively sever part of the roots (just a portion at a time, so it can heal and start branching / getting a dense root-mat, as I suspect it'd be mostly long roots reaching-out!), and the plan is that by spring I'll have a stump that's got several strong primary shoots, a root system that's established denser / closer roots, and hopefully excavate the thing w/o killing it!!



I know they've got a recovery time *but* i'm having trouble picturing 2-3yrs! I know you say it varies, but for instance w/ bougies (my favorite / most plentiful) they seem to take to their containers incredibly quickly, it's even common practice (adamaskwhy, wigerts etc would agree) to put them right into full sun and fertilize upon getting them potted..of course bougies aren't even true trees they're tropical vines from brazil so I guess it varies tremendously!!

Thanks for the info, and the well-wishes, hope your nursery/endeavours are going well!!

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Notice I said it varies from species to species. No fair comparing what I collect to tropicals!

SU2 said:

Why is that ideal? We've got swampy areas all around where I live (right by the gulf of mexico in FL on zone 9a/9b line), have never ventured into the marshes I've always figured that anything that's used to growing in always-saturated conditions wasn't transferable to containers!!

Click to expand...

BC love water, so when growing in water they tend to be more resilient when lifted. On dry land any species can suffer from drought which weakens the tree, making collecting riskier. That's all. Oh, and it's easier to saw through muck than dry ground.

SU2 said:

So you're for doing this during 'dormancy'- if you were to err one way or the other, would it be early-dormancy (fall) or late-dormancy when buds are starting to set? The latter is what I'm seeing recommended the most (though winter is recommended in many other places as well) Luckily we hardly have a 'winter' here, this is my weather it's perfect for growing:
View attachment 158883



Yeah I use a wired one when needed for thick, downward (tap-type) roots, luckily I am that strong young man so I'm pretty good at excavating Re collecting after first flush, that'd worry the hell out of me....putting a plant into shock (like collecting yammas) wreaks havoc on supple/fresh growth, I recently collected a bougie that'd been hard-chopped ~1.5-2wks prior, had ~5-10" shoots, and I collected it as immaculately as possible, planted as gently/best as I could muster, and it was a nightmare keeping those shoots alive as it adapted to the container/transplantation....had to defoliate them 2/3 of the way over ~1.5wks until it stabilized, would sooner collect something upon the hard-chop instead of 2-stepping it, if 2-stepping I'd want the growth to harden-off before collection!



When for live oaks? Live and Laurel are the two most common trees in my area, but I've never gotten one out of the ground to survive - oddly enough though, just yesterday I cut-back one on the edge of my property, it's about 1.25" wide and I clear-cut it at maybe 5-6" off the ground, am planning to let it grow-out shoots in-ground for a while, probably start using a handsaw at some point to selectively sever part of the roots (just a portion at a time, so it can heal and start branching / getting a dense root-mat, as I suspect it'd be mostly long roots reaching-out!), and the plan is that by spring I'll have a stump that's got several strong primary shoots, a root system that's established denser / closer roots, and hopefully excavate the thing w/o killing it!!



I know they've got a recovery time *but* i'm having trouble picturing 2-3yrs! I know you say it varies, but for instance w/ bougies (my favorite / most plentiful) they seem to take to their containers incredibly quickly, it's even common practice (adamaskwhy, wigerts etc would agree) to put them right into full sun and fertilize upon getting them potted..of course bougies aren't even true trees they're tropical vines from brazil so I guess it varies tremendously!!

Thanks for the info, and the well-wishes, hope your nursery/endeavours are going well!!

Click to expand...

When Zach says 2-3 years, it's best to believe him. He's been doing this for quite a while.

Also FWIW, chopping a tree and leaving it in place is pretty good recipe for killing it, especially for trees growing in wooded areas. This is because the root mass you've left untouched can't be supported by the bare, leafless trunk you've left behind. The tree may try to save itself with backbudding and new shoots, but it will probably ultimately fail, since the root mass is vastly undermatched by any foliage the tree can put out in shaded conditions.
Top growth and root mass support each other. One can't live without the other.

I have a collected live oak as bonsai. Had it for going on 25 years now. I did not dig it, but talked extensively with the person who did (Vito Megna). He topped and dug them all at once in the spring in the Austin, Tex area. He said his mortality rate for them at the time was around 10 percent or less.

Zach Smith said:

Notice I said it varies from species to species. No fair comparing what I collect to tropicals!

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Fair enough!!

Zach Smith said:

BC love water, so when growing in water they tend to be more resilient when lifted. On dry land any species can suffer from drought which weakens the tree, making collecting riskier. That's all. Oh, and it's easier to saw through muck than dry ground.

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I wouldn't have expected something from the muck to survive out of it, thanks that's very good to know!!

rockm said:

When Zach says 2-3 years, it's best to believe him. He's been doing this for quite a while.

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It's just different with tropicals, he acknowledged as much in his reply in that it varies with species (ie my bougies in FL recover faster than someone's juniper in CO) The point's taken though, am trying to get them stable for the long-haul so want anything I do in my nursery to reflect that!

rockm said:

Also FWIW, chopping a tree and leaving it in place is pretty good recipe for killing it, especially for trees growing in wooded areas. This is because the root mass you've left untouched can't be supported by the bare, leafless trunk you've left behind. The tree may try to save itself with backbudding and new shoots, but it will probably ultimately fail, since the root mass is vastly undermatched by any foliage the tree can put out in shaded conditions.
Top growth and root mass support each other. One can't live without the other.

Click to expand...

This is very interesting to me, I mean I understand that it happens and I try to act accordingly (ie if I took something from the ground with leaves and got 1/3 of the roots, I'd be removing ~2/3 of the foliage to match that; am intending to combine all real/harder prunings with root-prunings/re-boxings) But the physiology of it just seems weird to me, I'd have expected the tree would just 'shed' the unnecessary roots if being hard-chopped then left in-ground.. So you're not a proponent of '2-stepping' a yamadori then? I've only done work with stuff that's fine to do 1-step but there's a mature 'ruby loropetalum' bush I'm looking to collect and have the opportunity (and was seriously considering) 2-stepping it, after reading your post here I'm feeling against 2-stepping as a matter of practice (maybe it's just for some specific cases? I've heard of people doing this enough that it can't be 'impossible', though for all I know they held their growth back a while by 2-stepping instead of doing it all in one go.

rockm said:

I have a collected live oak as bonsai. Had it for going on 25 years now. I did not dig it, but talked extensively with the person who did (Vito Megna). He topped and dug them all at once in the spring in the Austin, Tex area. He said his mortality rate for them at the time was around 10 percent or less.

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When you say mortality rate you mean <10% survived? If so that'd make sense to me (in that I've never gotten an oak to take, not a big one or small one, not cuttings and not with seemingly-sufficient roots) Good to know, will make a spring project out of that, do a bunch of collections to get some that actually take!! With how proliferate live oaks are in our area, I can only imagine how well it'd adapt & handle bonsai treatment (in that the enviro is pretty ideal for it, am uncertain how well they take to bonsai- would absolutely love to see yours if you happen to have a pic handy!)

SU2 said:

Fair enough!!



I wouldn't have expected something from the muck to survive out of it, thanks that's very good to know!!


It's just different with tropicals, he acknowledged as much in his reply in that it varies with species (ie my bougies in FL recover faster than someone's juniper in CO) The point's taken though, am trying to get them stable for the long-haul so want anything I do in my nursery to reflect that!


This is very interesting to me, I mean I understand that it happens and I try to act accordingly (ie if I took something from the ground with leaves and got 1/3 of the roots, I'd be removing ~2/3 of the foliage to match that; am intending to combine all real/harder prunings with root-prunings/re-boxings) But the physiology of it just seems weird to me, I'd have expected the tree would just 'shed' the unnecessary roots if being hard-chopped then left in-ground.. So you're not a proponent of '2-stepping' a yamadori then? I've only done work with stuff that's fine to do 1-step but there's a mature 'ruby loropetalum' bush I'm looking to collect and have the opportunity (and was seriously considering) 2-stepping it, after reading your post here I'm feeling against 2-stepping as a matter of practice (maybe it's just for some specific cases? I've heard of people doing this enough that it can't be 'impossible', though for all I know they held their growth back a while by 2-stepping instead of doing it all in one go.


When you say mortality rate you mean <10% survived? If so that'd make sense to me (in that I've never gotten an oak to take, not a big one or small one, not cuttings and not with seemingly-sufficient roots) Good to know, will make a spring project out of that, do a bunch of collections to get some that actually take!! With how proliferate live oaks are in our area, I can only imagine how well it'd adapt & handle bonsai treatment (in that the enviro is pretty ideal for it, am uncertain how well they take to bonsai- would absolutely love to see yours if you happen to have a pic handy!)

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No. I don't "two step" collections. Haven't had much, if any success with it, with a variety of species. the tree won't "shed" unneeded roots, it will try to work with what it has. Not a good way to collect trees.

I mean 90 percent survived with the live oak collection. My live oak was collected in 1996 near Salado, Tex. It is quercus fusiformis, which was once considered a hardier upland version of the southern live oak. It is more drought tolerant than southern live oak (quercus virginiana). I believe Zach Smith has some experience collecting southern live oak. The trick in collecting ANY oak is to get old or old looking trunks, preferably BIG ones, like 4-10 inches across at the base, with some movement in the trunk's first three feet. Not an easy task.
My live oak bonsai and a new grey oak candidate I got this summer.

rockm said:

No. I don't "two step" collections. Haven't had much, if any success with it, with a variety of species. the tree won't "shed" unneeded roots, it will try to work with what it has. Not a good way to collect trees.

I mean 90 percent survived with the live oak collection. My live oak was collected in 1996 near Salado, Tex. It is quercus fusiformis, which was once considered a hardier upland version of the southern live oak. It is more drought tolerant than southern live oak (quercus virginiana). I believe Zach Smith has some experience collecting southern live oak. The trick in collecting ANY oak is to get old or old looking trunks, preferably BIG ones, like 4-10 inches across at the base, with some movement in the trunk's first three feet. Not an easy task.
My live oak bonsai and a new grey oak candidate I got this summer.
View attachment 158996 View attachment 158997

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Re movement in the lower parts of a thick oak trunk, no finding that is certainly not an easy task!

Thanks for posting those the live oak's trunk is incredible! Is the thick top of the trunk all growth you grew? (ie where the trunk lurches forward, is that where it was hard-chopped originally?)

The original chop was where the thinnest part of the apex extension begins. It's not clear from the photo, but the trunk moves side to side, but also has corkscrew turns in the bottom two thirds, very unusual for an older live oak to have that much movement in that short of a space. The apex has taken 15 years to grow out in a container. Probably would have taken half that if I could have developed it in a growing bed. Winters here aren't great for that. The tree spends winter months in a cold greenhouse.

rockm said:

The original chop was where the thinnest part of the apex extension begins. It's not clear from the photo, but the trunk moves side to side, but also has corkscrew turns in the bottom two thirds, very unusual for an older live oak to have that much movement in that short of a space. The apex has taken 15 years to grow out in a container. Probably would have taken half that if I could have developed it in a growing bed. Winters here aren't great for that. The tree spends winter months in a cold greenhouse.

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Up where it corkscrews towards-then-away from the camera? (the bark is different in that top third, darker and less-thick) Awesome tree regardless, hope to get something like that someday!!


Twice the growth rate for in-ground? Would you say that for most species or just oaks? I hear #'s all over the place for how much faster ground-growth is, I'd entertained the escape-root method where you let the container sink roots into the ground but it's too in-conflict with good nursery practice ie keeping stuff off the ground! I much prefer containers anyways, really hope I'm not getting a paltry 50% rate with my bougies, if I had to make a rough guesstimate I'd say they grow 75% as fast as other bougies I take care of (there's several large bougies I maintain on a weekly basis, so have a better feel for them from that - these are really huge ones, a tall hedge and a quasi-topiary-bush), they certainly grow more in a week than my large-trunked boxed-bougies but not twice as much! That, of course, could be 'leftover vigor', I'm obviously unable to differentiate what's 'real' growth versus what's stored-energy-growth (as discussed in other threads, the yammas that grow for a while then die, having never grown roots - bougies seem to hold a ton of resources in the cambial layer (relatively) which makes them easy to root on hardwood *but* of course means that growth could be bogus, lots of foliage w/o much roots. Luckily, in my smaller containers of yamadori and hardwood-cuttings, I can lift them and see roots coming from the bottom, so that's very reassuring!!)

Yes. That's where the initial chop was.

A rule of thumb is that the more root mass a tree has, the quicker it can develop primary trunks and branching. Grow beds are a good way to get that root mass, however, a tree can't simply be ignored while its there. Those roots have to be cut back every few years to keep the root pad more compact, or you just wind up collecting it all over again.

Good stuffs, thanks I cut-back an oak yesterday, am going to go out with my hand-saw and start severing some roots (am thinking to cut a circle around 2' in diameter around the base of the trunk, probably start by severing 1/3 or 1/2 of that circle and make a reminder to do another root-severing again in (a month or so?) Hopefully by spring I'll have a dense root pad under it, fresh shoots on the top, and can get my first oak!!