Is This Good Bonsai?

BobbyLane

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the upward rising branches on this Oak demonstrate great age, power and strength imo as they tower over you, saggy branches dont demonstrate age, its many other things like changes of branch direction, ramification etc etc
major-oak-in-early-spring.jpg
 

Bonsai Nut

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the upward rising branches on this Oak demonstrate great age, power and strength imo as they tower over you, saggy branches dont demonstrate age, its many other things like changes of branch direction, ramification etc etc

LOL those branches would all be sagging... if they weren't being held up by poles :)

That's not to say that there aren't old trees that don't sag... but that particular tree isn't one of them. Here's an old tree that doesn't sag! Somewhere between 2300 and 2700 years old. Tough to get a photo of it because it's 270' tall!

gen-sherman.jpg
 
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Adair M

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LOL those branches would all be sagging... if they weren't being held up by poles :)
There is a famous old JBP in Japan also held up by poles. Some have used it as their model for a "Naturalistic" JBP, lol!!!
 

Adair M

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this oak tree is 750 years old, here it is in winter, exibiting extensive deadwood and hollow areas
The royal oak, estimated 750 years old by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

here it is in may.....thriving
IMG_9602 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
Bobby, this is a great example of what I was talking about. There is little "deadwood" on this tree. Yes, there is a hollow trunk (Uro), where a branch died, and rotted, and the rot continued down into the center of the trunk.
 

BobbyLane

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LOL those branches would all be sagging... if they weren't being held up by poles :)

That's not to say that there aren't old trees that don't sag... but that particular tree isn't one of them. Here's an old tree that doesn't sag! Somewhere between 2300 and 2700 years old. Tough to get a photo of it because it's 270' tall!

View attachment 159005

the reason the poles are there, is to stop the branches snapping from the sheer weight!

another example, this one isnt being help in place with poles, its obviously a very old tree, my point is that saggy branches arent what makes a tree look old
Ancient Oaks by Jake S.D., on Flickr
 
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0soyoung

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And in Walter's tree I see an old trunk that has suffered. Large branches died and broke off. It is now rising from the dead. The new growth, of course, doesn't sag, but there is no doubt of the story of great age and suffering to survive. And I agree that it reflects the starter tree in this thread. Unequivocally old. IMHO.
 

defra

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I like the tree and probably would like the tree as bonsai too

But the tree itself to me it doesnt apear very special or of great age maybe afyer the strugle when its healthy again it does look more aged
 

GGB

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I like the shape of the tree but the fact that all the foliage seems backbudded away from all the growing tips irks the hell out of me
 

music~maker

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I would argue there's at least a few people here who have NEVER even seen a tree without the city's influence.

That said...

If the purpose of bonsai is to take someone back somewhere, to give them a feeling, revive memories.

Why not memories of moments within society?

I would guess we all have way more memorable memories of trees influenced by society.

But just like anything That would seem "easy" to recreate in miniature, it is difficult as hell!

But should be considered.

These trees are part of us!

Sorce

I can relate to this. These days, I see a lot more city trees than ancient mountain trees, and I absolutely have bonsai that will more closely resemble city trees than mountain ones when they're in their final forms. Various forms of broom style tree are ubiquitous in the city, and there are some very interesting ones around that I'd be happy to own in miniature. Plenty of inspiration to be found.

The issue I have is the tree is next to a road. This means it's been pruned, topped, wrecked in to and who knows what else over the years. My point is, it's not natural.

For me, saying this is not natural is confusing. The tree's response to whatever stresses, constraints or abuse it's had is 100% natural, and when a tree is left to it's own devices to recover after whatever's been done to it, the damage blends in organically, and just becomes a feature on the tree that adds to its character. It is simply a reflection of the environment it was growing in.

I mean, I get it. You're probably going for trees that look untouched by humans, and those can be truly astounding specimens. But I think that's going to be a very subjective preference depending on who you ask. For me, the beauty lies in the tree's underlying system, and how it responds so beautifully to adversity. When thinking about it this way, I find the origin of the adversity becomes less relevant after a while.

If you really want to go down the philosophical rat hole, I could easily argue that we, as natural beings, are as much a part of nature as the tree, and therefore, it's all just nature anyway (and therefore, all natural). But I could just as easily argue the opposite, so I won't do either.

I'll instead leave it as simply a subjective preference of one form over another. =)

Cheers
 

music~maker

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I don't like many of Dan Robinson's trees because they ARE in the process of dying! He doesn't repot them, they get root rot, branches die... Oh sure, I guess that's "natural", but part of bonsai is keeping trees healthy for the long term.

Have you actually been to Elandan and seen Dan's trees in person? I have, and the vast majority of what I recall seeing there was thriving and looked quite healthy. They do go longer in pots than I would have expected, but I don't think it's reasonable to say he doesn't re-pot his trees. He also happens to have some of the best trees I've seen in person, including some he's been growing for 3-4 decades.

He's clearly doing something right if he's been keeping them alive that long.
 

Vin

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I can relate to this. These days, I see a lot more city trees than ancient mountain trees, and I absolutely have bonsai that will more closely resemble city trees than mountain ones when they're in their final forms. Various forms of broom style tree are ubiquitous in the city, and there are some very interesting ones around that I'd be happy to own in miniature. Plenty of inspiration to be found.



For me, saying this is not natural is confusing. The tree's response to whatever stresses, constraints or abuse it's had is 100% natural, and when a tree is left to it's own devices to recover after whatever's been done to it, the damage blends in organically, and just becomes a feature on the tree that adds to its character. It is simply a reflection of the environment it was growing in.

I mean, I get it. You're probably going for trees that look untouched by humans, and those can be truly astounding specimens. But I think that's going to be a very subjective preference depending on who you ask. For me, the beauty lies in the tree's underlying system, and how it responds so beautifully to adversity. When thinking about it this way, I find the origin of the adversity becomes less relevant after a while.

If you really want to go down the philosophical rat hole, I could easily argue that we, as natural beings, are as much a part of nature as the tree, and therefore, it's all just nature anyway (and therefore, all natural). But I could just as easily argue the opposite, so I won't do either.

I'll instead leave it as simply a subjective preference of one form over another. =)

Cheers
So, for example, the big trucks that pass by and hack a branch off here and there are natural occurrences? I think it's a matter of semantics. My use of the word "natural" means untouched by humankind. Nothing at all philosophical about it. However, it doesn't really matter because as you said it's a subjective preference of one form over another. If you or anyone else like the form and wish to recreate it in bonsai then have at it. I wouldn't waste my time with it though. :)
 

Dav4

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Good juniper bonsai almost universally have deadwood features incorporated into their design, as do certain pine species like Ponderosa and Mugo. While the aesthetic in Japan is to build and show deciduous trees without scars or uros, I think it's been shown by many European artists, as well as a few here in North America, that incorporating uros and sharis in certain deciduous tree's designs can work, and work quite well. There is no tree in the wild that lives a long life that doesn't have blemishes that highlight the struggle between life and death. I think highlighting these blemishes in your developing deciduous bonsai can potentially take them to a new level if done well.
 

defra

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I got one too hawthorn
Id like to recreate its close to my house along the sidewalk
20170820_203545.jpg

Bad pic but i pass by everyday a couple times
 

Ry2Tree2

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LOL those branches would all be sagging... if they weren't being held up by poles :)

That's not to say that there aren't old trees that don't sag... but that particular tree isn't one of them. Here's an old tree that doesn't sag! Somewhere between 2300 and 2700 years old. Tough to get a photo of it because it's 270' tall!
Hard to compare conifers as the branch size: trunk width size is often much smaller than for deciduous trees. Further, depending on the time scale for our definition of "old", here is a mature deciduous tree common to eastern Oregon. The trunk up close is at least a 3-foot diameter. This species ALWAYS has very columnar growth, no matter how old. What characters indicate an old tree certainly can vary by species.

20170821_115450.jpg
 
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