Pinus halepensis collecting-zone 9

my nellie · Sep 7, 2017

In my property (almost into a pine forest) there are a lot of young trees, seedlings, more advanced in age etc which I can collect.
Τhe soil is kind of rocky but there are one or two trees on slopes which I believe are easier to remove preserving fine roots.... At least this is what I hope for...

Temperature forecast for two months as follows :
27 -32 C (80,6 - 89,6 F) max. for September and 19 -23 C. min.
18 - 28 C (64,4 - 82,4 F) max. for October and 12 - 17 C min.
If collected, the tree will be given of course protection from direct sun, wind etc

What is your opinion regarding timing?
Now (i.e. early fall) or waiting for late winter?

Starfox · Sep 7, 2017

I was reading on a Spanish forum and one poster mentioned that he has had success collecting in Autumn, October I think he stated.
The climate would be fairly similar to yours I imagine.

That is all I have to offer though, I find info on these and P. pinea hard to come by as they are always lumped in the "not a good species" for bonsai category.

my nellie · Sep 7, 2017

@Starfox thank you for your reply.
In fact, I was just about posting a link to your name as I thought you are from Spain

I wonder if there are any members from Italy to offer their experience...

@AlainK I know you are quite northern than I am.
However, what is your opinion/experience/knowledge in France?

Thank you everybody!

Starfox · Sep 7, 2017

my nellie said:
@Starfox thank you for your reply.

Well like I said I can only go on what I have seen posted elsewhere.
I have a couple of P. pinea that I will dig maybe next year, my first instinct was to do it in summer when the tree is dormant. Right now everything has woken up and is growing like crazy, so there will no doubt be conflicting info but I'm as keen as you for any good advice on the matter too.

MichaelS · Sep 7, 2017

my nellie said:
In my property (almost into a pine forest) there are a lot of young trees, seedlings, more advanced in age etc which I can collect.
Τhe soil is kind of rocky but there are one or two trees on slopes which I believe are easier to remove preserving fine roots.... At least this is what I hope for...

Temperature forecast for two months as follows :
27 -32 C (80,6 - 89,6 F) max. for September and 19 -23 C. min.
18 - 28 C (64,4 - 82,4 F) max. for October and 12 - 17 C min.
If collected, the tree will be given of course protection from direct sun, wind etc

What is your opinion regarding timing?
Now (i.e. early fall) or waiting for late winter?

One option if the tree is special is to take along a VERY sharp spade and make a few cuts into the root system, mark the tree and come back in spring to remove it. This will increase your success rate a lot. You may need to do some investigative digging to see what you can cut and what you can't. Reducing 3 or 4 major roots by 50 % will tend to force more roots further back. The best time is just before a growth phase. (cut in spring and dig in autumn) But even though the top has stopped by autumn the roots are still moving so you could do it the other way round as well.
Reducing the top a little will help too.

my nellie · Sep 7, 2017

Hello Michael!
What you describe is also my thought.
Even though the tree I have in mind is not that "special" but I like it a lot and I would never rush in order to keep chances in the safest side.
This weekend I am going to visit my cottage in the countryside and I might shoot some photos to post here...

MichaelS said:
... ...Reducing 3 or 4 major roots by 50 % will tend to force more roots further back. The best time is just before a growth phase. (cut in spring and dig in autumn) But even though the top has stopped by autumn the roots are still moving so you could do it the other way round as well.
Reducing the top a little will help too.

It's good that I can do the preparation phase now.
I see one problem though... but I think I can find a way to solve this.
The tree is clinging on the slope/bank of one of the flat-topped raised terraces, so if I make some investigating digging then I need to put the soil back... Then I need to fix something which will hold/contain again the soil around the roots...
I will think of something of course

my nellie · Sep 18, 2017

@MichaelS these are some shots of the tree in question.
Very poor quality photos with a cell phone...
I made some digging around the base and the soil detaches easily from the roots

Τhere is a sharp angle of the trunk continuing as tap root.
There is also a very smaller second tree coming out from the same root.

Same as above but a little more clearly shown. Red arrow = tap root, Blue arrow = second trunk

The tree has grown naturally bent at almost 180 d.

I have been reading some French fora/blogs and two bonsai connoisseurs Messrs. Laurent Breysse and Olivier Barreau specialists in collecting P. sylvestris, they separate collecting time based on the type of soil at the collection site.

So, if the soil is consisting of humus, sand and it's rocky they recommend collection to be made during spring, but the collection interval is too short.
But if the soil is clay-type, they recommend collection to be made during autumn. In fall the collection interval is much more longer.
In clayish soil in 99 percent of the cases, there is always a root ball with the amount of roots inside. The roots are there.
But sandy and humus soil, it is sometimes more difficult to keep a root ball together.

My case is coming under the first type of soil and following their recommendations I should dig the tree out coming spring 2018.
But spring is way too short in Greece and I think I'd rather take the tree end of winter 2017.

MichaelS · Sep 18, 2017

Alexandra

If you are going to go to the trouble to collect, perhaps you should be more discriminating in your selection? I can't really tell from here but it seems to me that these trees don't have many features which would want to make me lift them. If you can grow the same thing - or better - in 3 years from seed, it's not worth the trouble in my mind

my nellie · Sep 18, 2017

MichaelS said:
Alexandra
If you are going to go to the trouble to collect, perhaps you should be more discriminating in your selection?

You are correct Michael!
I could also collect some of the trees (pines that is) with a lot better character...
There are such trees where I am but the problem is I cannot do this all by myself, I cannot have someone else willing to help me and share the effort of digging...
So, I restrain myself in lesser stuff.
I could also collect smaller seedlings which grow there in abundance but I think that a tree like the above saves me some 3 or 4 years of growing, doesn't it?

Bon Sai · Sep 19, 2017

Good thread! Only the other day I found quite an interesting pinus halepensis some 200 meters from my house, which I plan to collect in springtime.

It's some 25 inches tall. What would happen if I shortened the branches? Would they back bud?

There are some interesting shrubs around here, by the way, but I don't know what species they are. Does anybody know?

This one seems very easy to remove. I've cut several branches in the base of the trunk. It's a kind of juniper shrub, which grows to maybe 8 feet at most. Looks interesting.

It makes these little fruits.

And also there is this shrub, of the same size and with identical fruits but the leaves are totally different. I think it's not even a jupiner.

Waltron · Sep 19, 2017

Bon Sai said:
Good thread! Only the other day I found quite an interesting pinus halepensis some 200 meters from my house, which I plan to collect in springtime.

View attachment 161184
It's some 25 inches tall. What would happen if I shortened the branches? Would they back bud?

There are some interesting shrubs around here, by the way, but I don't know what species they are. Does anybody know?
View attachment 161185
This one seems very easy to remove. I've cut several branches in the base of the trunk. It's a kind of juniper shrub, which grows to maybe 8 feet at most. Looks interesting.
View attachment 161186
It makes these little fruits.
View attachment 161187
And also there is this shrub, of the same size and with identical fruits but the leaves are totally different. I think it's not even a jupiner.

that first one is pretty nice, the duff almost looks like you could yank it out of the rocks with all the roots. I would start by just candle trimming to try to induce back buds, either there in situ, or once its established after collection. nice potential literati

Bon Sai · Sep 19, 2017

I would start by just candle trimming to try to induce back buds, either there in situ, or once its established after collection. nice potential literati

Why not cutting some branches to style it too, maybe even a lot if I opt for literati? Would it be dangerous? Would it encourage budding as the tree would want to compensate for the lost stuff?

Many questions he he.

Today I cut one branch that was crossing another and some dead ones. I could cut some roots too, as recomended in a post above, and collect it in springtime.

Waltron · Sep 19, 2017

before you do anything id wiggle it around and see where the roots go. you should check out andy smith on youtube or something. probably un likely, but you may not have to cut very many roots, but if you do, on a pine, you better be darn sure you know which roots you cut and where they go. you need a mat of feeder roots to have the tree live. those feeder roots need to be un broken. ideally, they are close to the trunk, but if they are not, might just leave it there.

my nellie · Sep 19, 2017

Where are you from Bon Sai?
It is always helpful to state one's country so help/suggestions are given more accurately.

Bon Sai said:
Good thread! Only the other day I found quite an interesting pinus halepensis some 200 meters from my house, which I plan to collect in springtime.
View attachment 161184
It's some 25 inches tall. What would happen if I shortened the branches? Would they back bud?
This is interesting indeed!
You need to read through the wealth of knowledge at BNut and understand how pines grow.
At this time (fall in my place) all the foliage is needed for helping the roots grow and accumulate energy for the next season.
There are some interesting shrubs around here, by the way, but I don't know what species they are. Does anybody know?
View attachment 161185
This one seems very easy to remove. I've cut several branches in the base of the trunk. It's a kind of juniper shrub, which grows to maybe 8 feet at most. Looks interesting.
I would say this is a Juniperus phoenician but I am not a species expert.

my nellie · Sep 19, 2017

Bon Sai said:
Why not cutting some branches to style it too, maybe even a lot if I opt for literati? Would it be dangerous? Would it encourage budding as the tree would want to compensate for the lost stuff?
Many questions he he.
Today I cut one branch that was crossing another and some dead ones. I could cut some roots too, as recomended in a post above, and collect it in springtime.

Your questions indicate that you have not enough knowledge in relation to collecting trees from their natural habitat.
You need to read a lot, as I advised before.
You never make major work on a pine twice.
Cutting branches for styling is a major work stressing the tree and digging the tree out is a lot more serious stress for the tree.
After collecting the tree should be left alone under every good care possible to recover for two or even three years.

And you have misunderstood what have been posted

MichaelS said:
One option if the tree is special is to take along a VERY sharp spade and make a few cuts into the root system, mark the tree and come back in spring to remove it... ...

This doesn't mean you "cut some roots"

Bon Sai · Sep 19, 2017

my nellie said:
Where are you from Bon Sai?
It is always helpful to state one's country so help/suggestions are given more accurately.

Spain. Hopefully no more Spain very soon, but Catalonia. Then I'll proudly show it on my profile

Your questions indicate that you have not enough knowledge in relation to collecting trees from their natural habitat.
You need to read a lot, as I advised before.
You never make major work on a pine twice.
Cutting branches for styling is a major work stressing the tree and digging the tree out is a lot more serious stress for the tree.
After collecting the tree should be left alone under every good care possible to recover for two or even three years.

You are right, that's why I'm asking questions. As I don't plan to collect it till springtime, I have quite a lot of time to learn. I'm new to bonsai, not only collecting yamadoris. I'm kind of experimenting a little.

And you have misunderstood what have been posted

One option if the tree is special is to take along a VERY sharp spade and make a few cuts into the root system, mark the tree and come back in spring to remove it. This will increase your success rate a lot. You may need to do some investigative digging to see what you can cut and what you can't. Reducing 3 or 4 major roots by 50 % will tend to force more roots further back. The best time is just before a growth phase. (cut in spring and dig in autumn) But even though the top has stopped by autumn the roots are still moving so you could do it the other way round as well.

Doesn't this mean cutting?

Also, yes, it's very probably a Juniperus phoenicia.

my nellie · Sep 20, 2017

Bon Sai said:
Spain. Hopefully no more Spain very soon, but Catalonia. Then I'll proudly show it on my profile
I wish you the best!
You are right, that's why I'm asking questions. As I don't plan to collect it till springtime, I have quite a lot of time to learn. I'm new to bonsai, not only collecting yamadoris. I'm kind of experimenting a little.
Everyone of us are/have been experimenting, either a little or more
As far as "lot of time" for learning... sometimes I wonder if I should add to my profile : "Studying/Learning since 2008 and Doing Bonsai since 2011"
Learning never stops!
Doesn't this mean cutting?
"Reducing" Michael said.
Of course reducing is made by cutting... if your "cutting" doesn't correspond to "removing" (which I thought was the case, from your context...) then it's OK.

my nellie · Sep 20, 2017

You could also start a thread of your own on that pine and hopefully you will get a lot more answers.
My thread title might be misleading... for your case/questions.

my nellie · Sep 20, 2017

my nellie said:
You could also start a thread of your own on that pine and hopefully you will get a lot more answers.
My thread title might be misleading... for your case/questions.

Possibly @sorce will show up with some of his productive rants

to help you with your queries in your own discussion/thread.

sorce · Sep 20, 2017

my nellie said:
based on the type of soil at the collection site.

Ohhh shit! No lack of rantability in that statement eh.?

Not that this statement is bullshit....but there is nothing real or scientific about this teaching that serves a bonsai practitioner at all.

It's so incomplete.

The type of soil itself has absolutely nothing to do with a successful collection time.

The amount of roots that are preserved in each soil may account for a difference in recovery time, which may make this statement true for them fellers, in their garden, with trees off their mountain.

But that has absolutely no bearing on what's going on in Greece. The simple truth is in the fact there is one Komodo Dragon.

Sorce bonsai Dictionary......

Different Climate = Island.

My Nellie, you should be able to figure your garden's timing with the precision of a Swiss watch, but only with your observations in your garden as precise as a Swiss Watch.
Notes, theories, should have no holes.
No Swiss Cheese! Swiss Watch!
You must be a Swiss Army knife!
Every tactic! Observe!

So I went and read the rest of the Sandy loamy clay theories, and what I read is the opposite of what I'd expect.

So the only way, again and always, to figure out your timings and practices....
Is to practice!

None of us will know if that tree, or one like it, will live, unless you dig that tree, put it in your yard, and see what happens!

Practice!

Lol! The French! A guy at my work has a safety harness from "French Creek".
I would never wear it!
Falltech? Or French Creek?

Falltech please!

French Creek sounds like it comes Sans paddle!
(A fall equals death equals a paddle up french creek)

The French can cook.

But the Greeks run restaurants the best.

But it doesn't matter wether any of us or anyone else is eating baguettes or flat pita bread....

It's the olive oil !

Outlandish TRUTHS.

In the right conditions....
You can saw the roots off that tree and make it take as a cutting.

In the right conditions...
You can collect that tree with every root and it will die.

Those are the extreme parameters we are working inward from to find a sustainable balance for our own capabilites and practices.

There is no window, until you cut the hole!

There is no end, until you know.

Doing is knowing.

Observing is being able to do it better each time.

Sorce

Pinus halepensis collecting-zone 9

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