I am looking for the cause!

bonhe

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My teacher just gave me this fantastic California juniper trunk yesterday. He collected it more than 40 years ago! I really like it for its fabulous deadwood and trunk shape. I plan to put it in the pot with sand as a focal point in my garden. It shows me a lot of things to learn about carving. I wlll post it here, so that whoever wants to make jin and shari can learn from it.
IMG_4185.JPG IMG_4187.JPG IMG_4188.JPG IMG_4189.JPG IMG_4190.JPG IMG_4191.JPG IMG_4192.JPG IMG_4193.JPG IMG_4194.JPG IMG_4196.JPG

I am looking for the information regarding to explanation of the natural twisting of the trunk. Thanks
Bonhe
 

0soyoung

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@bonhe, have you ever peeled the bark off a 'twisty pomegranate' and looked at the wood grain?

I have never had such a tree, but I believe the external 'twisty' appearance arises naturally and that it has never actually been twisted (meaning the branches positions have never changed relative to the roots. I have seen the trunks of fallen 80 foot tall forest trees that have spiraling grain. These suggest to me that the grain does not necessarily/always run straight up and down the bole (whatever 'straight up and down' might be).

I'm thinking about PIN proteins (polar auxin transport).
 

Velodog2

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That is a truly great piece of decor and will make a wonderful display! And it shows that carving can never faithfully replicate that appearance by any practical means I'm aware of.
 

Arcto

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I've posed this question to folks in the Forest Service. Their response is that this is a survival trait that trees in more arid areas developed to distribute resources ( i.e. water) to the entire tree. Imagine a tree throwing out several main roots. Some move thru sandy soil that dries out by late June. One or two find rock crevices to run down to a constant supply of moisture. The twisting of the xylem and phloem insures that more areas of the tree receive water and food preventing large areas from dying off.
This makes sense when you see trees near the coast that receive ample rainfall. This twisting growth is nowhere near as evident as is trees on the more arid east side of the cascades and sierras.
 

bonhe

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I've posed this question to folks in the Forest Service. Their response is that this is a survival trait that trees in more arid areas developed to distribute resources ( i.e. water) to the entire tree. Imagine a tree throwing out several main roots. Some move thru sandy soil that dries out by late June. One or two find rock crevices to run down to a constant supply of moisture. The twisting of the xylem and phloem insures that more areas of the tree receive water and food preventing large areas from dying off.
This makes sense when you see trees near the coast that receive ample rainfall. This twisting growth is nowhere near as evident as is trees on the more arid east side of the cascades and sierras.
Thanks for letting me know. But I don't understand why the xylem and phloem must be twisted to ensure more areas receive enough water ?!
Bonhe
 

bonhe

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I always thought the twisty ones like that were constantly being blasted by avalanches and wind too.

Very cool BTW!
This is a common explanation to which people think, but it still makes me wonder around!
Bonhe
 

JudyB

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I've seen many of these during our backpacking trips out west, and have wondered at this. Some in wind protected areas, where avalanches would not occur. So there must be some other explanation.
 

bonhe

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@bonhe, have you ever peeled the bark off a 'twisty pomegranate' and looked at the wood grain?

I have never had such a tree, but I believe the external 'twisty' appearance arises naturally and that it has never actually been twisted (meaning the branches positions have never changed relative to the roots. I have seen the trunks of fallen 80 foot tall forest trees that have spiraling grain. These suggest to me that the grain does not necessarily/always run straight up and down the bole (whatever 'straight up and down' might be).

I'm thinking about PIN proteins (polar auxin transport).
Hi Osoyoung, I removed the bark of twisted pome during carving. The wood grain is actually spiral, too. I also tried to think any relationship between hormone and spiral wood!
I took this deadwood of one of my twisted pome this afternoon. It is very interesting!
This is "Revered Teacher"
IMG_4156.JPG

It has one live vein (A) and shari (B) at front.
IMG_4204.JPG

Shari at trunk base
IMG_4205.JPG

There are 2 dead branches appears at the same place on trunk: 1, 2
IMG_4206.JPG IMG_4207.JPG

The live vein shows 2 small live vein (1, 3) with twisting.
IMG_4208.JPG

Other side has 2 dead branches coming out of the trunk in the same level
IMG_4209.JPG

The shari is spiral
IMG_4210.JPG

with 2 decayed areas used to be branches. We can clearly see the wood grains go around decayed areas
IMG_4211.JPG IMG_4212.JPG
Bonhe
 
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Arcto

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Thanks for letting me know. But I don't understand why the xylem and phloem must be twisted to ensure more areas receive enough water ?!
Bonhe
I hope I didn't imply that the xylem and phloem twisted around one another! In a perfect state, a major branch and root would have a straight pathway to one another. Other branches and roots would form their own separate connections. If a root lacks water, or a branch lacks sunlight, the the branch or root they directly connect to would also suffer. Twisting would overcome a fair amount of this, distributing water and food to more branches and roots of the tree. I hope this explains it better. I may have a special talent in creating confusion.o_O
 

bonhe

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I found this information on the net: Spiral grain caused by anticlinal division with new primary cell wall formation in one direction only.

I also found this explanation more reasonable in “Sierra Nevada Tree Identifier” book written by Jim Paruk: “the bark of the juniper is distinctive in the way it spirals around the tree. Spiralling is a phenomenon found in other species of trees inhabiting harsh, windy areas (i.e. the foxtail pine). It has been suggested that a spiral grain adds strength and resistance to strong winds.”
 

bonhe

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I hope I didn't imply that the xylem and phloem twisted around one another! In a perfect state, a major branch and root would have a straight pathway to one another. Other branches and roots would form their own separate connections. If a root lacks water, or a branch lacks sunlight, the the branch or root they directly connect to would also suffer. Twisting would overcome a fair amount of this, distributing water and food to more branches and roots of the tree. I hope this explains it better. I may have a special talent in creating confusion.o_O
Thanks for clarifying.
Bonhe
 

hemmy

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I hope I didn't imply that the xylem and phloem twisted around one another! In a perfect state, a major branch and root would have a straight pathway to one another. Other branches and roots would form their own separate connections. If a root lacks water, or a branch lacks sunlight, the the branch or root they directly connect to would also suffer. Twisting would overcome a fair amount of this, distributing water and food to more branches and roots of the tree. I hope this explains it better. I may have a special talent in creating confusion.o_O

I would also think that as the decades pass and different branches grow and die, some ‘lifeline’ portions decline and shutdown and other portions keep growing, laying down new wood. This asymetric growth enhances the coil effect.
 

Arcto

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I found this information on the net: Spiral grain caused by anticlinal division with new primary cell wall formation in one direction only.

I also found this explanation more reasonable in “Sierra Nevada Tree Identifier” book written by Jim Paruk: “the bark of the juniper is distinctive in the way it spirals around the tree. Spiralling is a phenomenon found in other species of trees inhabiting harsh, windy areas (i.e. the foxtail pine). It has been suggested that a spiral grain adds strength and resistance to strong winds.”
Yes, I've seen that theory from a number of sources. I can't dismiss it. I have seen spiraling in trees in the middle of forests where wind influence is less of a factor. However I've also noted that trees in exposed sites dealing with a lot of wind seem to show more severe spiraling than forest trees. Such as your cool piece of deadwood. Maybe both theories are correct.
 

Velodog2

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Andy Smith has a couple of pics of old trees with spiral wood on his Golden Arrow Bonsai website, and then many more samples in the deadwood he sells for tanuki. He states that the spiraling typically is conter-clockwise, which is what the example in this thread is. All the pics on his site but one, which he calls out for being unusual, are counter-clockwise.

To me this would rule out any outside influence such as wind which would presumably make them twist either direction randomly. It would seem there is perhaps a genetic component.

I like the theory that it strengthens the trunk.
 

Adair M

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The tree may have an arrow straight trunk, but the “pipeline” of the live wood spirals up rather than growing straight up on Junipers.

Some trees such as Trident Maples, and azaleas, tend to have their lifelines run straight up from the roots. Thus the roots on the right side of the tree supply the water for the limbs on the right side.

Junipers,on the other hand, are different. Since the lifelines spiral upwards, a branch on the right may be fed by a root on the left. When you think about it, it would seem to be an advantage in harsh climates. Let’s say that the best sun exposure is on the right. But something happened to kill the roots on the right. Only those branches directly attached to those roots would be affected. Other right hand branches maybe fed by roots on the other sides of the trunk!
 

my nellie

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Very interesting discussion, indeed! Thank you all participants!
My teacher just gave me this fantastic California juniper trunk yesterday.
You must be very beloved to your teache, Bonhe. Such an exquisite piece of wood art!
 
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