I Ruined My Kiyohime Maple

Omar · Oct 17, 2017

Hi everyone,

I got this lovely, lovely tree from Mendocino Maples the first week in April earlier this year. I immediately slip potted it into a 2gal pot and it was loving life. A few weeks ago, I went away with some friends on a Friday afternoon for what was supposed to be a 1 night trip but we ended up getting stranded for nearly 48hrs. I came back Sunday night to a crispy, unhappy maple. Since then, it's just about dropped all its leaves.

My question is this: how does this affect the tree's ability to survive the impending winter? Any recommendations following this muck up?

The first photo is the website's photo before I got it and the rest are the tree in its current state today, unfortunately I didn't take any in between.

0soyoung · Oct 17, 2017

At this point, I say not to worry.

Death of stems is indicated by dead cambium which causes the normally green bark to turn black (dark colored). In some circumstances the prelude is the green bark gets wrinkly, sorta like your finger tips when they've been in water for a long time. I don't see any sign of either of these symptoms in you pix.

Now, be careful to not overwater it!

Dav4 · Oct 17, 2017

I agree with the above. If the dead leaves fell off on their own, buds are present at the axil, and the trunk remains green, you should be good to go for next spring. Hopefully, you've got a good place to overwinter it.

discusmike · Oct 17, 2017

It will not use nearly as much water,consider it dormant,take a deep breath n dont panic by dumping a ton of water on it,the tree will live to see another spring if tended to properly

Paradox · Oct 17, 2017

What they said ^^^

Omar · Oct 17, 2017

0soyoung said:
At this point, I say not to worry.

Death of stems is indicated by dead cambium which causes the normally green bark to turn black (dark colored). In some circumstances the prelude is the green bark gets wrinkly, sorta like your finger tips when they've been in water for a long time. I don't see any sign of either of these symptoms in you pix.

Now, be careful to not overwater it!

Dav4 said:
I agree with the above. If the dead leaves fell off on their own, buds are present at the axil, and the trunk remains green, you should be good to go for next spring. Hopefully, you've got a good place to overwinter it.

I have a personal balcony so not really? I do have a mobile greenhouse I can set up and put it in when things get really bad.

discusmike said:
It will not use nearly as much water,consider it dormant,take a deep breath n dont panic by dumping a ton of water on it,the tree will live to see another spring if tended to properly

Paradox said:
What they said ^^^

Bless all your hearts.

Potawatomi13 · Oct 17, 2017

NO BIG DEAL! Will recover

. Wasn't so hot to begin with and has bad graft scar as well.

Stickroot · Oct 17, 2017

Omar said:
Hi everyone,

I got this lovely, lovely tree from Mendocino Maples the first week in April earlier this year. I immediately slip potted it into a 2gal pot and it was loving life. A few weeks ago, I went away with some friends on a Friday afternoon for what was supposed to be a 1 night trip but we ended up getting stranded for nearly 48hrs. I came back Sunday night to a crispy, unhappy maple. Since then, it's just about dropped all its leaves.

My question is this: how does this affect the tree's ability to survive the impending winter? Any recommendations following this muck up?

The first photo is the website's photo before I got it and the rest are the tree in its current state today, unfortunately I didn't take any in between.

View attachment 164219 View attachment 164222 View attachment 164223 View attachment 164224 View attachment 164225 View attachment 164226 View attachment 164227

You didn't ruin it at all.
Who Ever grafted it to a mountain maple ruined it, but it will be fun for you to fix that.

just.wing.it · Oct 18, 2017

Stickroot said:
You didn't ruin it at all.
Who Ever grafted it to a mountain maple ruined it, but it will be fun for you to fix that.

Agreed...
And you have enough meat under that graft to layer that top off and still have a green mtn maple to grow out!

Omar · Oct 18, 2017

just.wing.it said:
Agreed...
And you have enough meat under that graft to layer that top off and still have a green mtn maple to grow out!

Looks like I have plenty of reading to do as this is my first experience with a maple and grafts. Thanks as usual everyone.

twisted trees · Oct 18, 2017

Paradox said:
What they said ^^^

What they said.^^^

Omar · Feb 17, 2018

My plan for this tree is to reduce in height and grow as a little shohin one day. Is it safe/advisable to prune branches before the spring? I've read about fall pruning once tress enter dormancy but does the same apply to late winter?

Omar · Feb 17, 2018

Should also mention if it's not glaringly obvious that I'm a newbie and this is my first time working on a deciduous tree. I've only ever had tropicals before this.

MrFancyPlants · Feb 17, 2018

If it just got crispy last fall, I would see how it leafs out this year before any reduction. Later in the spring should be fine if it is looking healthy.

Omar · Feb 17, 2018

MrFancyPlants said:
If it just got crispy last fall, I would see how it leafs out this year before any reduction. Later in the spring should be fine if it is looking healthy.

That's a very good point I truly hadn't considered that. Spring it is

Thanks

Leo in N E Illinois · Feb 17, 2018

I agree with @MrFancyPlants - just see how it does in spring.

About grafted maples, the abrupt change in trunk diameter a little ways above the soil is the graft union. The low part and roots are likely a wild type Japanese maple, (Acer palmatum) or a mountain maple (Acer shirasawanum, or A. sieboldianum or A. circinatum) At any rate, it looks like the root stock is growing more quickly than the 'Kiyohime' portion of the tree. This is the reason @just.wing.it suggested air layering the upper part of the tree off the understock. 'Kiyohime' is a slower growing cultivar, it is unlikely it will ever totally catch up with the understock. The good news is 'Kiyohime' has a proven track record of being able to root from cuttings and air layers. Not all maple cultivars will root from cuttings or air layers. So while air layering is good for this 'Kiyohime' the technique can not be used for many maple cultivars.

But as you said, you are new to the hobby. While the sudden change in trunk diameter is viewed as a ''flaw'' for formal bonsai display, on this tree it is not that bad. If your own eye doesn't notice it, then you do not need to air layer the tree off the rootstock. The process of air layering will take at least one growing season to get roots to form and a second growing season to get the recently separated 'Kiyohime' healthy enough to work on again. I assume you only have a few trees and are looking toward getting started. A two year delay in being able to ''do bonsai'' is probably not something you would like.

So I suggest you skip the air layer process for now. If the tree were mine, the plan then would be to not do any pruning right now. In spring see how the tree leaf's out. If you get growth from all the buds you see, or the majority of the buds you see on the tree now - congratulate yourself, because the tree will have pulled through just fine. If the spring growth is sparse, with only a few buds opening and growing, you have a stresses tree, and will need to get it healthy before doing any heavy pruning.

Assuming you have a vigorous flush of growth, let the new growth extend, and when the first 3 sets of leaves on each branch have fully expanded and hardened off, developed a firm texture, then you could potentially do the first pruning. Post pictures about that time and we can coach you through the process.

It is a nice tree, I would be happy to have it on my bench.

thumblessprimate1 · Feb 17, 2018

I grew mine in ground 5 or 6 years and maybe 2 or 3 years in pot before doing an airlayer. When I first got my murasaki kiyohime, it was a stick smaller than a pencil. Still not much, but it's much more than before.

Mike Hennigan · Feb 17, 2018

Omar, keep in mind goin forward that slip potting is almost always going to be bad for the tree. Introducing new soil on the sides and bottom of an already established rootball without teasing open the rootball for a full repotting procedure, will basically allow water to travel around the roots and out the pot. Instead of letting the water permeate into the rootball as it should. I would guess that because you slip potted, the tree was already not getting enough water, and so being away for just two days it dried out much faster than it would have if you didn’t slip pot. Hope your tree has recovered well! Take care.

Omar · Feb 19, 2018

Leo in N E Illinois said:
I agree with @MrFancyPlants - just see how it does in spring.

About grafted maples, the abrupt change in trunk diameter a little ways above the soil is the graft union. The low part and roots are likely a wild type Japanese maple, (Acer palmatum) or a mountain maple (Acer shirasawanum, or A. sieboldianum or A. circinatum) At any rate, it looks like the root stock is growing more quickly than the 'Kiyohime' portion of the tree. This is the reason @just.wing.it suggested air layering the upper part of the tree off the understock. 'Kiyohime' is a slower growing cultivar, it is unlikely it will ever totally catch up with the understock. The good news is 'Kiyohime' has a proven track record of being able to root from cuttings and air layers. Not all maple cultivars will root from cuttings or air layers. So while air layering is good for this 'Kiyohime' the technique can not be used for many maple cultivars.

But as you said, you are new to the hobby. While the sudden change in trunk diameter is viewed as a ''flaw'' for formal bonsai display, on this tree it is not that bad. If your own eye doesn't notice it, then you do not need to air layer the tree off the rootstock. The process of air layering will take at least one growing season to get roots to form and a second growing season to get the recently separated 'Kiyohime' healthy enough to work on again. I assume you only have a few trees and are looking toward getting started. A two year delay in being able to ''do bonsai'' is probably not something you would like.

So I suggest you skip the air layer process for now. If the tree were mine, the plan then would be to not do any pruning right now. In spring see how the tree leaf's out. If you get growth from all the buds you see, or the majority of the buds you see on the tree now - congratulate yourself, because the tree will have pulled through just fine. If the spring growth is sparse, with only a few buds opening and growing, you have a stresses tree, and will need to get it healthy before doing any heavy pruning.

Assuming you have a vigorous flush of growth, let the new growth extend, and when the first 3 sets of leaves on each branch have fully expanded and hardened off, developed a firm texture, then you could potentially do the first pruning. Post pictures about that time and we can coach you through the process.

It is a nice tree, I would be happy to have it on my bench.

I've successfully layered trees before but haven't attempted it on a deciduous. In the future I'll consider it but for now I'd like to learn the nuances of the tree for a couple of seasons first. I'm blown away that people can discern between 2 different species on a graft that's absolutely incredible. If it wasn't mentioned here I wouldn't even have known it was grafted in the first place, I thought that scar was from picking a fight with a bigger maple or something.

I plan to repot in spring and reduce the root ball by ~50%? Is that too ambitious? If all goes well like you suggested then I'll consider pruning.

Mike Hennigan said:
Omar, keep in mind goin forward that slip potting is almost always going to be bad for the tree. Introducing new soil on the sides and bottom of an already established rootball without teasing open the rootball for a full repotting procedure, will basically allow water to travel around the roots and out the pot. Instead of letting the water permeate into the rootball as it should. I would guess that because you slip potted, the tree was already not getting enough water, and so being away for just two days it dried out much faster than it would have if you didn’t slip pot. Hope your tree has recovered well! Take care.

Thank you for this, again something I wasn't familiar with.

Potawatomi13 · Feb 20, 2018

No worries. Maples like Bonsai weeds. Sometimes very dry summer trees shed early/survive just fine

.

I Ruined My Kiyohime Maple

Yamadori

Imperial Masterpiece

Drop Branch Murphy

Omono

Imperial Masterpiece

Yamadori

Imperial Masterpiece

Masterpiece

Deadwood Head

Yamadori

Omono

Yamadori

Yamadori

Omono

Yamadori

The Professor

Masterpiece

Chumono

Yamadori

Imperial Masterpiece

Similar threads