Black Pine Seedling Cuttings

Nybonsai12 · Sep 17, 2017

Looking good. I agree this is a fun project, mine will be two years in another 3 months or so and I've been following your thread closely to compare growth. Next spring they will get their first repot into colander. I will be putting bends similar to yours. Thanks for the pics and update. Excellent examples to follow.

I've been debating trying red pine from seed indoors this winter. Hmmmm

markyscott · Oct 22, 2017

So here’s the timeline so far:

March 2015 Planted seeds
April 2015 Took seedling cuttings and transferred to 4” pots
Then I let them grow for two growing seasons

December 2016 Repotted and wired the seedlings.
Seedlings were repotted into pond baskets or one gallon pots with a coarse soil mix. Some were started as shohin whil others were started as exposed root or root-over-rock.
July 2017 Removed the wire when it started to cut in

Next year will be a growth year and I won’t repot or do any root work. Here’s how they look after 3 growing seasons:

markyscott · Oct 22, 2017

I honestly don’t know how Mr. Matsuo did this in 6 years:

I think it will take me longer.

Scott

markyscott · Oct 22, 2017

I’ve also noticed some brown tips:

I think this is likely heat damage. The pot get’s very hot in the full southern exposure I give them in summer. I’ve noticed this on some of my other black pines as well. I think next year I’ll try shading the pot to keep the roots a bit cooler.

Scott

DirkvanDreven · Oct 22, 2017

markyscott said:
I honestly don’t know how Mr. Matsuo did this in 6 years:

Scott

I suspect he starts counting the years later then we do...

markyscott · Oct 22, 2017

DirkvanDreven said:
I suspect he starts counting the years later then we do...

LOL! Could be! But I only have the article to go on. I’m guessing the trunks of some of them could be that size or larger, but I’m just astounded by the level of refinement. That will definitely take me a bit longer.

Scott

DirkvanDreven · Oct 22, 2017

I have jbp seedlings that are now 6 growing season old. some of them have a base, just above the roots of 4 cm (I think that is 1,75 in?). Plenty of tiny branches and shoots in the first 2 inches from the soil, but no refinement/ramification yet. It all to weak to think about decandling. So ramification start after cutting the main sacreficebranch. I think the climate in Japan is so much better for developping black pine then our climate.
Jbp in the Netherlands start candling in may, needles fully grown in late august. My big black pine (pune) just hardened of end of september.
This years seedling cuttings are just now developing small terminal buds.
So, and that is my point: th climate in Japan helps a lot!

DirkvanDreven · Oct 22, 2017

nevertheless I suspect they start counting when seedlings are put in colanders!

petegreg · Oct 22, 2017

markyscott said:
I honestly don’t know how Mr. Matsuo did this in 6 years:

View attachment 164686

I think it will take me longer.

Scott

Looking at this in The Pine book and at my seedling with a trunk and no branches I wonder too.

petegreg · Oct 22, 2017

DirkvanDreven said:
I have jbp seedlings that are now 6 growing season old. some of them have a base, just above the roots of 4 cm (I think that is 1,75 in?). Plenty of tiny branches and shoots in the first 2 inches from the soil, but no refinement/ramification yet. It all to weak to think about decandling. So ramification start after cutting the main sacreficebranch. I think the climate in Japan is so much better for developping black pine then our climate.
Jbp in the Netherlands start candling in may, needles fully grown in late august. My big black pine (pune) just hardened of end of september.
This years seedling cuttings are just now developing small terminal buds.
So, and that is my point: th climate in Japan helps a lot!

Pictures, please.

Brian Van Fleet · Oct 22, 2017

DirkvanDreven said:
I suspect he starts counting the years later then we do...

Agreed. I’ve seen some articles that compress time as a way of horticultural showing off. An Ilex Serrata article and this one from BT 20 are particular standouts, where it’s obvious that wasn’t done in x years. Still impressive work.

DirkvanDreven · Oct 25, 2017

petegreg said:
Pictures, please.

Dav4 · Oct 25, 2017

I just planted a bunch of my seedling pond basket grown JBP, probably 4 years old now, out into the ground for a few years. For some, they'll be back in a pond basket in 2-3 years, while others may grow out longer with periodic root work. I like the control of growing them on my bench, but I need fatter trunks, too.

Drew · Oct 25, 2017

The climate seems to make a lot of difference in growth rate. I have seedlings the same age as Scott's and most of them are smaller. I have about 70 going at the moment and maybe 10 are Scott's size. the rest are smaller.

sorce · Oct 26, 2017

@ohiogrown this one!

Sorce

jeanluc83 · Oct 26, 2017

markyscott said:
I honestly don’t know how Mr. Matsuo did this in 6 years:

I think under perfect conditions it is possible. To achieve that you would need to grow the trunk to size it about 2 years and then spend the next 4 in refinement. You would also really need to know what you are doing and do everything at the exactly right time to avoid loosing any development time.

namnhi · Oct 26, 2017

jeanluc83 said:
I think under perfect conditions it is possible. To achieve that you would need to grow the trunk to size it about 2 years and then spend the next 4 in refinement. You would also really need to know what you are doing and do everything at the exactly right time to avoid loosing any development time.

Haha, even injecting grow harmones still not going to get that trunk in two years. I have many 9 year old don't even get that thick...granted I don't feed them as much as some do. These are less than 1 in trunk. My zone is very suitable for JBP.

Adair M · Oct 26, 2017

markyscott said:
I honestly don’t know how Mr. Matsuo did this in 6 years:

View attachment 164686

I think it will take me longer.

Scott

That article was first translated from Japanese to Spanish. Then from Spanish to English. Then published.

There are likely translation errors.

jeanluc83 · Oct 26, 2017

Although not JBP, the pitch pine I have in the mame contest is 4 seasons old and right about 3/4” in diameter. My yard only gets about 8 hours of full sun a day. If I could give full sun all day I’m sure it would be closer if not over 1”.

I don’t think it would be unreasonable to have a JBP grow to 1” in 2-3 seasons under the right conditions. I think what is unbelievable about the pictured tree is the level of refinement that was achieved. But with skill under the right conditions it could be possible.

jeanluc83 · Oct 26, 2017

namnhi said:
These are less than 1 in trunk. My zone is very suitable for JBP.

It appears that these trees have been cut back. In order to build a trunk they must be allowed to grow "free". The skill in growing stock from scratch is walking the line between allowing the tree to grow free while preserving the low growing branches. If you look at pictures of JBP growing out you will see a very long sacrifice trunk that is allowed to grow relatively unchecked while the low branches are managed to keep them strong. I think I read somewhere that ~3’ of height corresponds to 1” of girth.

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