Black Pine Seedling Cuttings

Adair M

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@M. Frary,

Gogeerah ---------- go here ----------- purchase

https://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Bla...pID=61x-y5Q48DL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

___________________________________________

The contest is about quality, not trunk size.

I will walk you through the situation. Zone 6 [ -10 F low ] through 8
Look up information on frost protection.
Some places use plastic buckets.

We can create some beautiful 6 to 12 inch bonsai.

First year all you need is 4 inch clay pots.

Will send you an image here for inspiration.
Best wishes
Mottie
Anthony, are you really trying to give Frary winter protection advice? Really?
 

Anthony

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Sifu [ @Adair M ]

you forget I lived away for many years, and also grew trees indoor and I work
in Science. Zone 6 / 7 to 8 / 9.
Plus there is also the work of Jack Wikle.
http://www.fukubonsai.com/2b2a2a.html

So it really depended on what Mike would have been willing to do.

We grew this for 24 years with the use of a refrigerator - Ginkgo - zone 3 to 8
https://www.arborday.org/trees/treeguide/TreeDetail.cfm?ItemID=1092

We should be zone 13b
Hope this helps.
Anthony
 

Bonsai Nut

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I'd love to join in with my virginia pines, maybe if other species aren't welcome we can have an off shoot contest with native seedlings?

What's wrong with JBP? They thrive in PA climate. I think JBP seeds are cheaper than acadama pellets at this point :) I now fully expect you to join the 6 year contest :)
 

namnhi

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I'd love to join in with my virginia pines, maybe if other species aren't welcome we can have an off shoot contest with native seedlings?
I will do a lot of different kind of oaks this coming Spring. Will that qualify?
 

Anthony

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@namnhi,

I think the idea is to further pool all the information on the growing and beginning
training of the Japanese black pine.

Why not see who has grown, or has an interest in growing oaks from seed or other.

Mike could also talk to Mr. Valavanis about growing Scots pine.
Good Day
Anthony
 

GGB

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Nothing against JBP, I can get seed for free (cheaper even) and prebonsai material is everywhere. I just never had any kind of emotional connection to JBP the way I do with local trees. Also apologies to Marky, this thread WAS a great resource. But everyone is excited now at least
 
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Guy Vitale

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Makes sense, it's a pretty short growing season up there.

BTW Mike, I'm heading up to the Mio/Luzern area in a couple weeks for a buddy's deer camp, was wondering if you gad any nice collected trees you'd be willing to sell, like white cedar?
 

ysrgrathe

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End of first season's growth for JBP seedlings I started under lights indoors in February. The germination rate was 75%. I forgot to note the survival rate of the cuttings after a month but it was above 90% IIRC.

The Anderson flat is all seedling cuttings started per Jonas' instructions: bedding the seeds in a thin layer of coarse sand above the substrate. Some interesting results:
  • Substrate on left half: boon mix. Survival rate: 28%.
  • Substrate on right half: 60% grower size granite (chicken grit), 40% pro mix BX (mostly peat with mycorrhizae). Survival rate: 72%. The seedlings in this mix were also substantially larger.
The smaller tray has seedlings I didn't turn into cuttings. I picked all the strongest seedlings for cuttings, so it isn't surprising these are small, but I thought it interesting to show how much more vigorous the cuttings can be.

I kept the cuttings indoors under lights (16,000 lux) for 8 weeks then hardened them off outside, eventually under full sun. The flat was over my grow bed of DE and some of the more vigorous seedlings had 8" or more of roots growing out of the flat. I took good care of them outside for a month and then I moved across the country, so while they were watered automatically they otherwise had to fend for themselves. When I was around, I fertizilized with a cheap synthetic

Some other thoughts: several of the cuttings have buds right at the soil line, some of the "weaker" cuttings have more internodes per inch which might be better for shohin.

@markyscott thanks for inspiring me. See you at Boon's next week. :)
 

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markyscott

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End of first season's growth for JBP seedlings I started under lights indoors in February. The germination rate was 75%. I forgot to note the survival rate of the cuttings after a month but it was above 90% IIRC.

The Anderson flat is all seedling cuttings started per Jonas' instructions: bedding the seeds in a thin layer of coarse sand above the substrate. Some interesting results:
  • Substrate on left half: boon mix. Survival rate: 28%.
  • Substrate on right half: 60% grower size granite (chicken grit), 40% pro mix BX (mostly peat with mycorrhizae). Survival rate: 72%. The seedlings in this mix were also substantially larger.
The smaller tray has seedlings I didn't turn into cuttings. I picked all the strongest seedlings for cuttings, so it isn't surprising these are small, but I thought it interesting to show how much more vigorous the cuttings can be.

I kept the cuttings indoors under lights (16,000 lux) for 8 weeks then hardened them off outside, eventually under full sun. The flat was over my grow bed of DE and some of the more vigorous seedlings had 8" or more of roots growing out of the flat. I took good care of them outside for a month and then I moved across the country, so while they were watered automatically they otherwise had to fend for themselves. When I was around, I fertizilized with a cheap synthetic

Some other thoughts: several of the cuttings have buds right at the soil line, some of the "weaker" cuttings have more internodes per inch which might be better for shohin.

@markyscott thanks for inspiring me. See you at Boon's next week. :)

Very nice side-by-side comparison. Looking forward to meeting you in Hayward.

S
 

DirkvanDreven

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It is my experience too that the seedling cuttings grow faster than the ones that i didn't cut.
After three batches of JBP seedling, I must disagree. I'm not very much further north then you are, but cuttung the seedlings do slow them down! So much in fact, that the growth season is just long enough that the seedlings make terminal buds. Not cutting the seedlings produces seedlings that are three times as big as the seedlings cuttings at the end of the growing season.
 

ysrgrathe

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Like everything else in bonsai, a lot probably depends on your climate. PA 6B is not exactly a super long growing season, but you can see in the last pic the 1-season cutting produced 4 opened needle buds and a cluster of terminal buds that have already opened.
 
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My seedling cuttings were about 1/3 bigger than the ones i didn't cut. The following year the difference gets bigger. I left the cuttings and the "seedlings" next to each other to provide them with similar conditions in the greenhouse (this might be the reason why we have different results in the same climate). After cutting part went in separate pots (akadama/bims), others went in Styrofoam flats with smaller akadama. The seedlings stayed in big akadama. The ones in separate pots did best, in the flats slowest (to wet). The seedlings i left were in a BIG wooden box and i expected massive growth but it was a bit of a disappointment. Difficult to keep them all happy. Some got to wet and turned yellow, some got to dry and turned brown, some don't get enough light and are weak and leggy. Next spring i will evaluate the root development.
 

EPM

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Sowing the seed

I live in Houston, Tx - that USDA climate zone 8B or 9A depending on what part of town you live in. It's warm here, but we can get occasional freezes in the winter. I have a greenhouse for my tropicals and I start my black pine seeds in there. Because of my climate and the greenhouse, I can start seedlings very early. Some years I've started them as early as January. I think on the example below, I started them a bit later than usual - late February or early March.

I usually start mine in seedling starter trays from Home Depot or Lowes. The ones I buy come with a humidity dome and don't have individual cells. The individual cells are worthless at this stage - I just spread the seeds more or less evenly. I start them in standard seedling starter soil I buy at the box store. Place a layer of soil in the tray and wet it thoroughly. Then spread the seeds and put another layer of soil on top. Moisten it lightly.

I keep it in the greenhouse throughout this stage and monitor it to ensure it stays moist. With the humidity domes, I only have to water it once every couple of weeks. You should start to see sprouts a couple of weeks later. As soon as the seedlings have shed their seed shells and opened the immature first needles (cotyledons), spray with a fungicide. I use Daconil.

After several weeks, you'll have a couple of trays that look like this:
View attachment 115093

Scott

Hi Scott,
When you sow your seed what do you estimate the temperature is in your greenhouse? Are you targeting a specific temperature? Do you use heat mats? How much sun are they getting? Sorry for the barrage of questions. Just trying to clear up a few things before I start some seed next year. Thanks
 

markyscott

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Hi EPM. I have thermostat which kicks the heater on at 50F and a fan the comes on at 80F. The fan commonly runs during the day. I had a heating mat under the seedlings. They’re in a greenhouse with southern exposure supplemented by fluorescent lighting.

S
 

markyscott

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3 year old seedlings. Starting to push growth for their fourth growing season. The largest has about a 1” trunk and is 17” tall. Needles are starting to extend already - they’re really early. I might get a second push this year.

6345CBC3-801F-4CE6-9B28-6DB8D9BABDA8.jpeg33BDCDEB-2FDA-4CBE-99D9-FB3BDE76A79B.jpeg

Scott
 
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