Eastern red cedar, W. pine & Norw Spruce Help!

trew22 · Nov 27, 2017

Hello, i am a newbie to bringing my trees indoors in west michigan during winter. i realized that i have been making Bonsai's for many years, they just have been in the ground their whole life. I potted a prize ERC , White Pine, and Norway Spruce 18 months ago and they are very vibrant!. i brought them in just before temp went below 31 degrees-mid oct. Would you people give me advice and expertise as to how to overwinter them: in regards to giving them a dormancy period? Dark basement or (preferably our low-light front room)? Is room temperature ok or does it have to be cold - we let house cool to 58 to 62 degrees at night. also, should i stop watering during dormancy (don't want root rot)?, i have them potted in 50%coarse sand, 40% fine peat with 10% perlite mix; on a pea-gravel bed. THANKYou so much for your help!!

M. Frary · Nov 27, 2017

All of those trees need to be outside for winter.
They need dormancy and that means temps near 32 degrees all winter long.
I would get them outside as soon as possible. Set them on the ground on the north side of your house or shed or garage. Cover them up to the lowest branch with mulch.
Once frozen they won't need water. But until then check them every so often,like once a week for moisture.

TN_Jim · Nov 27, 2017

I'm looking forward to others thoughts on this one. It seems like these trees need to overwinter outside with perhaps some love/insulation, getting proper "winter dormancy" temps., not at 58 to 62. I would think that the spruce should especially be able to tolerate some bitter cold temps.

I collected several ERC this year, potted them, and have left them outside. We have had a frost almost every morning for the past two weeks, and they (two large hawthorns still in landscape pots also) seem to be doing ok. I am planning on shielding them from the rain and surrounding them with pinebark and leaves...hope this is enough for em'.

TN_Jim · Nov 27, 2017

oops..meant wind..not rain

rockm · Nov 27, 2017

trew22 said:
Hello, i am a newbie to bringing my trees indoors in west michigan during winter. i realized that i have been making Bonsai's for many years, they just have been in the ground their whole life. I potted a prize ERC , White Pine, and Norway Spruce 18 months ago and they are very vibrant!. i brought them in just before temp went below 31 degrees-mid oct. Would you people give me advice and expertise as to how to overwinter them: in regards to giving them a dormancy period? Dark basement or (preferably our low-light front room)? Is room temperature ok or does it have to be cold - we let house cool to 58 to 62 degrees at night. also, should i stop watering during dormancy (don't want root rot)?, i have them potted in 50%coarse sand, 40% fine peat with 10% perlite mix; on a pea-gravel bed. THANKYou so much for your help!!

What make you think that they need to be inside now? They were in the ground for years, apparently...Inside they will remain vibrant for a couple of days, not so much in a week, they will be dead and browned out in a month if they remain indoors. Room temps are far too warm for them in the winter. Humidity levels inside with the heat on are comparable to the humidity level in Death Valley--no lie.

OUTSIDE, NOW. Mulch them into a garden bed out of the wind. Make sure the pots can drain before covering them with mulch...

M. Frary · Nov 27, 2017

I live where it's colder than where you live.
I keep all trees outside just like I described. The only real losses I've incurred were were from voles.
I don't use the trees you use. But they are cold hardy to temperatures well below what you see there.

sorce · Nov 27, 2017

WeLcome to Crazy!

Sorce

Vin · Nov 27, 2017

trew22 said:
I potted a prize ERC , White Pine, and Norway Spruce 18 months ago and they are very vibrant!.

Hmmm, we'll be the judge of that once we see the proof.

Ingvill · Nov 28, 2017

Welcome

twisted trees · Nov 28, 2017

M. Frary said:
All of those trees need to be outside for winter.
They need dormancy and that means temps near 32 degrees all winter long.
I would get them outside as soon as possible. Set them on the ground on the north side of your house or shed or garage. Cover them up to the lowest branch with mulch.
Once frozen they won't need water. But until then check them every so often,like once a week for moisture.

Being very cold hardy species they can take sub freezing temps. I assume the white pine is Eastern white pine. All of these species are time consuming in terms of developing character reminiscent of Bonsai. Be prepared to take your time.

Learn how to overwinter outside, out of the wind and in nursery pots while you train the roots into bonsai shape. Once you learn how to make your trees survive, then obtain prebonsai that will bring more immediate satisfaction.

Guy Vitale · Nov 28, 2017

This is how I winter my developing trees, on the east side of my fence with leaves packed around the pots. This same set up for the last 5 years including two of the harshest winters I've ever experienced and the trees came out just fine every year. My better developed trees in nicer pots winter in my unheated garage.

trew22 · Nov 28, 2017

First let me say thank you very much for your responses!!! Seems like i have had it backwards. I was concerned about the roots freezing, because they are potted, which apparently is not an issue, so back outside they will go.

twisted trees · Nov 28, 2017

trew22 said:
First let me say thank you very much for your responses!!! Seems like i have had it backwards. I was concerned about the roots freezing, because they are potted, which apparently is not an issue, so back outside they will go.

Watch the wind. When the pots are frozen the wind can dry the top of the tree and there is no way for it to rehydrate. Most important.

rockm · Nov 28, 2017

Just because a tree is in a pot, doesn't make it a houseplant. Temperate zone trees (especially deciduous trees) require a cold period to complete their annual growth cycle. Temperate zone bonsai can take quite a lot of cold, depending on species. Constant snow cover is about the most effective covering for cold-hardy trees. This photo has bald cypress, elm, maple and a few other things underneath the snow. This was an exceptional snowfall for here in Va., but the trees didn't suffer.

Vance Wood · Nov 28, 2017

trew22 said:
First let me say thank you very much for your responses!!! Seems like i have had it backwards. I was concerned about the roots freezing, because they are potted, which apparently is not an issue, so back outside they will go.

The trees you have listed are more or less native to our climate here in Michigan. These trees must be kept outdoors, and I know that there are some people that adhere to the concept that you must keep the roots from freezing they are wholly and totally WRONG. I have had this argument with many growers that don't live in our kind of climate and they seem to think we have to keep the roots from freezing. In Michigan the frost line is 48" deep. Do you think a tree planted in the ground is not equipped to deal with this depth of cold? The big enemy is not keeping the roots frozen until April at the earliest.

trew22 · Nov 28, 2017

Your picture is worth a thousand words to me. i would have a difficult time really seeing this without it. Thank you!

trew22 · Nov 28, 2017

Lord mugo, my experience has been exactly as you have stated it: most hard winters the trees in my yard and woods freeze at least 4 feet down, especially where the wind blows the snow off so there is NO insulation. i have listened to some voices who have said i must bring them in for a safer environment, but still facilitate a dormancy, with ? low light or something, i got stuck at the "bring them inside" part and didn't hear the rest of what they said.

Also , very good thinking chumono - the wind could cause dry-out: what i have called winter burn.

rockm · Nov 28, 2017

trew22 said:
Your picture is worth a thousand words to me. i would have a difficult time really seeing this without it. Thank you!

BTW, underneath the snow, the pots are also under a foot of mulch --protecting the roots is the name of the game. Frozen roots are NOT a problem as Vance said. It's the DEPTH of the freeze that can kill roots. Pots left unprotected in temperatures much below 20 for extended periods are in danger--hence the mulch covering. It "lags" the relative heat trapped underneath the mulch and in the trees' roots, insulating roots from the worst in deep winter. In the spring, it also lags the cold, keeping roots from becoming active too early in the season.

Guy Vitale · Nov 28, 2017

Exactly, that's why I store my trees on the east side of the fence, between the fence and my neighbors house in the background, I get a pretty good windbreak.

Vance Wood · Nov 28, 2017

You keep the wind and snow off the trees. Once you get them frozen you hope to keep them that way as long as possible in Michigan at least past March when the killing freeze, thaw, freeze solid cycle can cause the sap to rise freeze it solid and blow up the cambium layers.

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