Preparing American deciduous broadleaved trees

Walter Pall

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Thank you for your response.Indeed I have read a lot of your writings about Naturalistic Style, but I could never imagine that this is the reason for keeping two or three branches coming from the same base point.
Olives present this habit very clearly and in fact they are treated against their nature.

John Naka said "Do not make yur tree look like a bonsai, but make your bonsai look like a tree". So how do you make your bonsai look like a tree? You avoid all the bonsai sterotypes and do not look for bonsai or pictures of bonsai for guidance but look at real trees.
 
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my nellie

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Wisely said, if I may say.
I miss reading your conversations with Mr. Arthur Joura back on the good old days of IBC
 

Zach Smith

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No offense intended, but I've been collecting and providing deciduous American material (plenty of hornbeams, along with others) to bonsai enthusiasts for the better part of 25 years now. So this isn't really a new discovery or a new direction we're suddenly going in as a bonsai community. Glad to see it get a mention from Mr. Pall, of course.
 

Wilson

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That's not the case though.... :)
Yes, I understood these to be American trees, I was just relating how I enjoyed the trees he mentioned from Croatia. I know Walter has for years now has been saying America needs to start taking advantage of all the beautiful broadleaf trees, and this is a great start! Fortunately many members here have been sharing beautiful native deciduous.
 

rockm

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I must say that I find this post a bit of a head scratcher. There is no reason to be envious of Croatia or Europe for deciduous stock for crying out loud. Americans have been developing deciduous natives for a very long time. Just check the National Arboretum's North American collection for Christ Sakes.

MANY American collectors have been using some spectacular collected broad leafed deciduous stock for, well DECADES. If some folks weren't so focused on collected US western conifers, they'd know that.

As Zach Smith said, he's been collecting stock (and he won't say this) superior to that pictured for well over 25 years in the deep south. I know, because I visited his house back in the 90s to select a bald cypress stump for bonsai. There were some jaw droppers back then, from BC and a host of other deciduous species -- from Hawthorn to willow oak. My tree has now been in bonsai culture for over 20 years. Zach regularly collects great deciduous stock and has an eye that's been sharpened by 25 years of looking and finding and digging.
https://bonsai-south.com/

I also know some spectacular collected native deciduous stock came out of Guy Guidry's place, Bonsai Northshore in Covington, La., for a very long time and not just Bald Cypress.

I'd also bet that Alvaro Arceniegas in Dallas at Cho bonsai has exponentially better and more stock than all of the hornbeam bonsai stock candidates residing in Croatia. I know that because I have family that lives two miles from him. They've visited his location. They said this oak (which I bought online from him) is outshined by a lot of the other stock that packs his yard.
greyoak1.jpg

These are just a few of the collectors I've worked with. There are more.

The argument that there are no developed U.S. native deciduous bonsai or stock comparable to Croatia or Europe is silly. There are. Tthey reside mostly in private collections and don't get out to shows. I know of more than a dozen collected deciduous tree bonsai here in Va. that are comparable to anything coming out of Europe. Their owners aren't interested in showing them off though.

The argument also misses the people who pioneered use of native species. For instance, in Texas, Cedar elm is pretty damn common and it shames hornbeam, ANY hornbeam, as bonsai material. Collectors in Texas know that and have been working the species for decades. Vito Megna, an Austin area collector, sold hundreds of extremely fine cedar elm stumps back in the 90's, as well as other species, including Texas live oak. I have one of each of those from that period.
This is the live oak I bought from Vito in '98 or so.
It's been redesigned twice in the 20 years I've had it. May not be his best, but it's trunk chop has filled in well and its apex is well along at this point--which may not be the case with those hornbeam in 25 years...
live oak.jpg

A 35-40 year old developed cedar elm in the National Arboretum
cedar elm.jpg

A person that might add some perspective to what kind of developed stock is actually out there is Don Blackmond. He buys older collections. He has some pretty spectacular older native deciduous bonsai, including a jaw-dropping southern live oak.

To say that we haven't done anything worthwhile with our wealth of deciduous species (there are more species in an acre of Appalachian cove forest than in all of Europe) is not accurate.
smoothleafedelm.jpg
Smooth leafed elm---National Arboretum-- in training since 1982...
 
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JudyB

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I must say that I find this post a bit of a head scratcher. There is no reason to be envious of Croatia or Europe for deciduous stock for crying out loud. Americans have been developing deciduous natives for a very long time. Just check the National Arboretum's North American collection for Christ Sakes.

MANY American collectors have been using some spectacular collected broad leafed deciduous stock for, well DECADES. If some folks weren't so focused on collected US western conifers, they'd know that.

As Zach Smith said, he's been collecting stock (and he won't say this) superior to that pictured for well over 25 years in the deep south. I know, because I visited his house back in the 90s to select a bald cypress stump for bonsai. There were some jaw droppers back then, from BC and a host of other deciduous species -- from Hawthorn to willow oak. My tree has now been in bonsai culture for over 20 years. Zach regularly collects great deciduous stock and has an eye that's been sharpened by 25 years of looking and finding and digging.
https://bonsai-south.com/

I also know some spectacular collected native deciduous stock came out of Guy Guidry's place, Bonsai Northshore in Covington, La., for a very long time and not just Bald Cypress.

I'd also bet that Alvaro Arceniegas in Dallas at Cho bonsai has exponentially better and more stock than all of the hornbeam bonsai stock candidates residing in Croatia. I know that because I have family that lives two miles from him. They've visited his location. They said this oak (which I bought online from him) is outshined by a lot of the other stock that packs his yard.
View attachment 170865

These are just a few of the collectors I've worked with. There are more.

The argument that there are no developed U.S. native deciduous bonsai or stock comparable to Croatia or Europe is silly. There are. Tthey reside mostly in private collections and don't get out to shows. I know of more than a dozen collected deciduous tree bonsai here in Va. that are comparable to anything coming out of Europe. Their owners aren't interested in showing them off though.

The argument also misses the people who pioneered use of native species. For instance, in Texas, Cedar elm is pretty damn common and it shames hornbeam, ANY hornbeam, as bonsai material. Collectors in Texas know that and have been working the species for decades. Vito Megna, an Austin area collector, sold hundreds of extremely fine cedar elm stumps back in the 90's, as well as other species, including Texas live oak. I have one of each of those from that period.
This is the live oak I bought from Vito in '98 or so.
It's been redesigned twice in the 20 years I've had it. May not be his best, but it's trunk chop has filled in well and its apex is well along at this point--which may not be the case with those hornbeam in 25 years...
View attachment 170868

A 35-40 year old developed cedar elm in the National Arboretum
View attachment 170869

A person that might add some perspective to what kind of developed stock is actually out there is Don Blackmond. He buys older collections. He has some pretty spectacular older native deciduous bonsai, including a jaw-dropping southern live oak.

To say that we haven't done anything worthwhile with our wealth of deciduous species (there are more species in an acre of Appalachian cove forest than in all of Europe) is not accurate.
View attachment 170870
Smooth leafed elm---National Arboretum-- in training since 1982...
Hear Hear!
 

sorce

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I must say that I find this post a bit of a head scratcher. There is no reason to be envious of Croatia or Europe for deciduous stock for crying out loud. Americans have been developing deciduous natives for a very long time. Just check the National Arboretum's North American collection for Christ Sakes.

MANY American collectors have been using some spectacular collected broad leafed deciduous stock for, well DECADES. If some folks weren't so focused on collected US western conifers, they'd know that.

As Zach Smith said, he's been collecting stock (and he won't say this) superior to that pictured for well over 25 years in the deep south. I know, because I visited his house back in the 90s to select a bald cypress stump for bonsai. There were some jaw droppers back then, from BC and a host of other deciduous species -- from Hawthorn to willow oak. My tree has now been in bonsai culture for over 20 years. Zach regularly collects great deciduous stock and has an eye that's been sharpened by 25 years of looking and finding and digging.
https://bonsai-south.com/

I also know some spectacular collected native deciduous stock came out of Guy Guidry's place, Bonsai Northshore in Covington, La., for a very long time and not just Bald Cypress.

I'd also bet that Alvaro Arceniegas in Dallas at Cho bonsai has exponentially better and more stock than all of the hornbeam bonsai stock candidates residing in Croatia. I know that because I have family that lives two miles from him. They've visited his location. They said this oak (which I bought online from him) is outshined by a lot of the other stock that packs his yard.
View attachment 170865

These are just a few of the collectors I've worked with. There are more.

The argument that there are no developed U.S. native deciduous bonsai or stock comparable to Croatia or Europe is silly. There are. Tthey reside mostly in private collections and don't get out to shows. I know of more than a dozen collected deciduous tree bonsai here in Va. that are comparable to anything coming out of Europe. Their owners aren't interested in showing them off though.

The argument also misses the people who pioneered use of native species. For instance, in Texas, Cedar elm is pretty damn common and it shames hornbeam, ANY hornbeam, as bonsai material. Collectors in Texas know that and have been working the species for decades. Vito Megna, an Austin area collector, sold hundreds of extremely fine cedar elm stumps back in the 90's, as well as other species, including Texas live oak. I have one of each of those from that period.
This is the live oak I bought from Vito in '98 or so.
It's been redesigned twice in the 20 years I've had it. May not be his best, but it's trunk chop has filled in well and its apex is well along at this point--which may not be the case with those hornbeam in 25 years...
View attachment 170868

A 35-40 year old developed cedar elm in the National Arboretum
View attachment 170869

A person that might add some perspective to what kind of developed stock is actually out there is Don Blackmond. He buys older collections. He has some pretty spectacular older native deciduous bonsai, including a jaw-dropping southern live oak.

To say that we haven't done anything worthwhile with our wealth of deciduous species (there are more species in an acre of Appalachian cove forest than in all of Europe) is not accurate.
View attachment 170870
Smooth leafed elm---National Arboretum-- in training since 1982...

I'm totally with this!

However......

I think good stock that came from Back in the day has that Time quality that BVF is referring to, but lacks the "good bonsai horticultural" techniques that the books confused for us (you'se) back then.

Which is to say....

Let's not figure we can't improve.

We are improving.

Go Zach!

Sorce
 

rockm

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I'm totally with this!

However......

I think good stock that came from Back in the day has that Time quality that BVF is referring to, but lacks the "good bonsai horticultural" techniques that the books confused for us (you'se) back then.

Which is to say....

Let's not figure we can't improve.

We are improving.

Go Zach!

Sorce
Not saying there isn't room for improvement.

What I'm saying is that this post lacks perspective and The stock in those photos isn't all that spectacular. Some of it is junk and will never have much going for it even in time, even in "Naturalistic" style. In looking through those photos again, I'd say all of it is pretty unspectacular and typical for collected stuff.

Better stock is, and always has been, out there.

I've collected my share of American deciduous natives and seen a ton of collected deciduous stuff at various places in the U.S. over the last 25 years or so. I've also seen some pretty excellent "finished" trees from U.S. deciduous trees--particularly in the deep South and Southeast.

When you've mostly focused on big, old, western and alpine conifers, I can understand why you would have the opinion that there is a lack of decent collected deciduous tree bonsai in the U.S...It's just not an informed perspective, IMO.
 
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sorce

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Not saying there isn't room for improvement.

What I'm saying is that this post lacks perspective and The stock in those photos isn't all that spectacular. Some of it is junk and will never have much going for it even in time, even in "Naturalistic" style. In looking through those photos again, I'd say all of it is pretty unspectacular and typical for collected stuff.

Better stock is, and always has been, out there.

I've collected my share of American deciduous natives and seen a ton of collected deciduous stuff at various places in the U.S. over the last 25 years or so. I've also seen some pretty excellent "finished" trees from U.S. deciduous trees--particularly in the deep South and Southeast.

When you've mostly focused on big, old, western and alpine conifers, I can understand why you would have the opinion that there is a lack of decent collected deciduous tree bonsai in the U.S...It's just not an informed perspective, IMO.

Amen!

I just don't want these young cats to think we have nothing left to do!

Sorce
 

augustine

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Walter,

Thank you, some people don't know much about collected American deciduous trees and some (but not all) need a reminder. The stock your friends are working is very good, top shelf in my opinion.

Please keep the information coming!
 

MichaelS

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="augustine, post:
The stock your friends are working is very good, top shelf in my opinion.


Either that or it is complete garbage material that will take decades to rectify if it is even possible to rectify. Material where you will be able to tell where it was attacked by humans for a long time. I guess it all depends on how you look at it. But ''top shelf'' it isn't. It is material which demands brutal forcing.
 

Tidal Bonsai

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I must say that I find this post a bit of a head scratcher. There is no reason to be envious of Croatia or Europe for deciduous stock for crying out loud. Americans have been developing deciduous natives for a very long time. Just check the National Arboretum's North American collection for Christ Sakes.

MANY American collectors have been using some spectacular collected broad leafed deciduous stock for, well DECADES. If some folks weren't so focused on collected US western conifers, they'd know that.

As Zach Smith said, he's been collecting stock (and he won't say this) superior to that pictured for well over 25 years in the deep south. I know, because I visited his house back in the 90s to select a bald cypress stump for bonsai. There were some jaw droppers back then, from BC and a host of other deciduous species -- from Hawthorn to willow oak. My tree has now been in bonsai culture for over 20 years. Zach regularly collects great deciduous stock and has an eye that's been sharpened by 25 years of looking and finding and digging.
https://bonsai-south.com/

I also know some spectacular collected native deciduous stock came out of Guy Guidry's place, Bonsai Northshore in Covington, La., for a very long time and not just Bald Cypress.

I'd also bet that Alvaro Arceniegas in Dallas at Cho bonsai has exponentially better and more stock than all of the hornbeam bonsai stock candidates residing in Croatia. I know that because I have family that lives two miles from him. They've visited his location. They said this oak (which I bought online from him) is outshined by a lot of the other stock that packs his yard.
View attachment 170865

These are just a few of the collectors I've worked with. There are more.

The argument that there are no developed U.S. native deciduous bonsai or stock comparable to Croatia or Europe is silly. There are. Tthey reside mostly in private collections and don't get out to shows. I know of more than a dozen collected deciduous tree bonsai here in Va. that are comparable to anything coming out of Europe. Their owners aren't interested in showing them off though.

The argument also misses the people who pioneered use of native species. For instance, in Texas, Cedar elm is pretty damn common and it shames hornbeam, ANY hornbeam, as bonsai material. Collectors in Texas know that and have been working the species for decades. Vito Megna, an Austin area collector, sold hundreds of extremely fine cedar elm stumps back in the 90's, as well as other species, including Texas live oak. I have one of each of those from that period.
This is the live oak I bought from Vito in '98 or so.
It's been redesigned twice in the 20 years I've had it. May not be his best, but it's trunk chop has filled in well and its apex is well along at this point--which may not be the case with those hornbeam in 25 years...
View attachment 170868

A 35-40 year old developed cedar elm in the National Arboretum
View attachment 170869

A person that might add some perspective to what kind of developed stock is actually out there is Don Blackmond. He buys older collections. He has some pretty spectacular older native deciduous bonsai, including a jaw-dropping southern live oak.

To say that we haven't done anything worthwhile with our wealth of deciduous species (there are more species in an acre of Appalachian cove forest than in all of Europe) is not accurate.
View attachment 170870
Smooth leafed elm---National Arboretum-- in training since 1982...

Hey Man,

I am obviously much newer at this than you and definitely much...much...much newer than Walter ;). I have been looking through Zach Smiths website, and I do not see a huge degree of difference between his material and the Hornbeams in Chicago (besides the noticeably larger surface roots). They all look like chopped stumps that still have many years ahead of them. What exactly is it that you look for in trunk chopped deciduous Yamadori since you are essentially building from scratch?

Thanks for any/all info!

PS Alvaro's material is on a whole other level, it's very obvious to see the difference there.
 

justBonsai

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I've seen a lot of nice old cedar elms at my local bonsai nursery and the GSBF Huntington Gardens collection has some nice ones as well. California has a lot of really nice oak trees that some have been developing for 30+ years but I guess they don't count as broad leaf trees.
 

Walter Pall

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The ground breaking aspect of these trees deciduous broadleaved treesy at Hidden Gardens south of Chicago probably is not at all that they are the first ones in America nor that they are so much better. It is the fact that they are available commercially in large numbers to the general public and there is much more to come.
 

Anthony

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Two points ---------- spindly, thin, branches ?

[2] American type trees will happen [ is and has [ happened naturally.
Love that Keith Scott ------ elm. Correct ?

I am not sure spindly branches make sense ?

But it is a fast way when combined with a hedging technique to make
a likeable effort.

Alas on our side, the branches get thicker and are often fewer on the
native trees.
Good Day
Anthony
 

rockm

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Hey Man,

I am obviously much newer at this than you and definitely much...much...much newer than Walter ;). I have been looking through Zach Smiths website, and I do not see a huge degree of difference between his material and the Hornbeams in Chicago (besides the noticeably larger surface roots). They all look like chopped stumps that still have many years ahead of them. What exactly is it that you look for in trunk chopped deciduous Yamadori since you are essentially building from scratch?

Thanks for any/all info!

PS Alvaro's material is on a whole other level, it's very obvious to see the difference there.
Comparing what Alvaro is collecting with what Zach is collecting is kind of apples to oranges. Alvaro is collecting mostly desert species that have been naturally dwarfed. They are not all that common with deciduous species. They are with collected conifers--which they kind of resemble in character. What Zach is collecting aren't natural dwarfs. They take more work to develop. The stuff in Chicago isn't bad. Some of those have very nice potential, but they're pretty typical of the deciduous material that's been collected and developed for quite a long time in the U.S.
 

rockm

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The ground breaking aspect of these trees deciduous broadleaved treesy at den Gardens south of Chicago probably is not at all that they are the first ones in America nor that they are so much better. It is the fact that they are available commercially in large numbers to the general public and there is much more to come.
I know more than a couple of collectors--Alvaro and Zach--for instance that have this amount of material or more commercially available to anyone. Zach has had dozens of trees, large and small available for years. He collects every spring and his trees usually don't stay on his website very long, so having them all in one place at the same time...
 

rockm

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Two points ---------- spindly, thin, branches ?

[2] American type trees will happen [ is and has [ happened naturally.
Love that Keith Scott ------ elm. Correct ?

I am not sure spindly branches make sense ?

But it is a fast way when combined with a hedging technique to make
a likeable effort.

Alas on our side, the branches get thicker and are often fewer on the
native trees.
Good Day
Anthony
Spindly branches are temporary. Sometimes extremely temporary depending on species. Fast growing trees like elms and bald cypress will throw a new leader and branching that is definitely not spindly in only a couple of years if allowed to grow out. It's not a barrier and part of the development process. This material takes a different set of skills than wiring existing substantial branches in place as is done on a lot of collected conifers.
 
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