Japanese white pine experiences?

Adair M

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My experience has been ok with them. Zone 7-8 Nc. Have a few ive managed to keep alive for about 5 years now. Some grafted probably on eastern white pine roots and some seed grown. Mine seem to want to lose any needles that were not current season growth tho. Maybe not enough sun? I have had terrible luck with any pine i plant in the ground between voles and disease i guess.
Some varieties tend only keep the latest year’s needles. Others might keep them for two.

But, it’s also a sign of strength if they retain old needles! JWP prefer to be kept on the dry side. Not by withholding water, but use a fast drying soil mix seized so that all particles are the same size.
 
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I find that they're happy little campers in zone 6b but were we are we have a really nice lake system that keeps it cool and dry in the summer and not super cold in the winter, theyre happy to back bud but totally random unless its new growth thats been pruned. Its almost impossible to find any that have not been grafted. trying some experiments with cuttings and ground layers next year. Basically they like our area but they dont have the qualities for bonsai
 

Vance Wood

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You have seen these before earlier this spring. Grown from seed started in the 80's and as of now I have five survivors, this year the first time being styled. They are difficult here as well. I am not sure why these survived I am not sure if I was lucky or just dodged a bullet. However they need to be repotted this year.
 

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Adair M

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You have seen these before earlier this spring. Grown from seed started in the 80's and as of now I have five survivors, this year the first time being styled. They are difficult here as well. I am not sure why these survived I am not sure if I was lucky or just dodged a bullet. However they need to be repotted this year.
Vance, how long are the needles on your JWP?
 

Arcto

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Here is a white pine in the landscape showing the damage on this horizontal branch.1BBE01BD-8F06-47FE-B103-AE7D58AD2923.jpeg
A Himalayan White Pine with the sunken damage on its trunk. E05EC37A-EAA4-4AE3-BA1E-9EFF6E21A1AA.jpeg
One of my JWP starting to show trunk discoloration. 04FF4AF1-721F-4D04-B620-C62D5ADAC0F1.jpeg
Apparent sunscald damage near the base of this JWP. EA04E312-38D1-47BD-90C4-740C2C198B79.jpeg
Interestingly, the Bristlecone and Limber, both real high elevation trees, don’t get that damage here. This Vanderwolfe Limber cultivar is planted against a dark rock and gets blasted by afternoon sun more than any others here. No apparent damage. 1EB4625F-6A9E-4603-AA62-96AAB3C0446A.jpeg
Can you post a picture of the sun scald?
 

Adair M

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8E554398-5787-4D57-9D39-4279D3028AFB.jpeg
Currently; about 1 1/2 inches.
That’s what I thought. Seedlings generally have longer needles than the varieties used for grafting.

This tree has 1 inch needles:

8E554398-5787-4D57-9D39-4279D3028AFB.jpeg

It’s the variety most often grafted on JBP rootstock. The trunk is Lodgepole.

This is a Zuisho, grown from an airlayer:

9DB74C98-6AF2-436E-B7AA-E4FF28A0B207.jpeg

It’s needles are about 5/8 inch. This tree was airlayered by Julian Adams. Julian bought his original Zuisho from Bill Valavanis back in the 1970’s. Julian tells me it was the last one Bill had for sale, and it was cheap because it wasn’t very healthy, and Bill thought it was going to die. Julian saved it. And that tree has been cloned via airlayering and cuttings.

Next we have this Kokonoe:

98B8E07C-022E-4EE3-8785-2AB07F2FB86A.jpeg

It’s needles are about 3/4 inch. This tree was once grafted onto JBP rootstock. When repotting it, there were two sets of roots: the JBP roots, and a set of Kokonoe roots. It appears to have ground layered. No one knows if it was intensional, or a happy accident. At any rate, the JBP roots have been removed, and the tree is on its own roots.

I have a couple other obscure cultivars that have 1/2 inch needles. REALLY slow growers!

But the point I’m trying to make is the trees I have, none of the JWP are seedlings. They’re all grafts or layers. The needle quality of most JWP seedlings are inferior to the cloned varieties, which is why most of the JWP we see are grafts. Only Kokonoe and Zuisho can be reliably propagated by layering. They can be grown from cuttings, but only 5 percent will live.
 

Adair M

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Here is a white pine in the landscape showing the damage on this horizontal branch.View attachment 171589
A Himalayan White Pine with the sunken damage on its trunk. View attachment 171591
One of my JWP starting to show trunk discoloration. View attachment 171587
Apparent sunscald damage near the base of this JWP. View attachment 171590
Interestingly, the Bristlecone and Limber, both real high elevation trees, don’t get that damage here. This Vanderwolfe Limber cultivar is planted against a dark rock and gets blasted by afternoon sun more than any others here. No apparent damage. View attachment 171588
I’m not convinced any of that is sunscald. Maybe it is, I don’t know. But it appears the landscape tree suffered a physical trauma, maybe another tree falling on it that caused the wound and dieback. I don’t know what a Himalya Pine looks like, the two JWP pictures?? What part is the sunscald? JWP smooth bark does eventually split, and become flaky. But usually not for 20 years or so.
 
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@Adair M Its strange, JWP do pretty well in my area of Ontario and as a landscape tree theyre becoming a popular addition to gardens as a smaller pine, we usually dont have summer temps that go past the 30c mark very often and pretty dry so they grow well and our winters are cold enough with usually lots of snow (with the exception of the last three years) but not bitter so that it hurts the tree. But most of the cultivars available to buy are either badly grafted or not very desirable for bonsai. also with our import laws being tough, its very hard to bring quality and inexpensive stock into Canada as well so that probably explains why they're not seen up here until recently.
 

jeanluc83

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I have a few seedlings that I grew from seeds collected from a landscape JWP. Having grown pitch pine and JBP I was surprised at how big the seeds are.

Next year will be their third season. They are slow growers. They are all in one pot now so I'll repot them into their own pots in the spring.

I'm only about a mile off the coast but the parent tree was closer. I'm curious if that will make any difference.
 

MichaelS

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Because I cultivate a lot of trees I've started taking soil temps. I will water when it gets too hot just to cool off the soil.
That's probably not the best thing to do. Better to keep the roots dry (unless they actually need water) and shade them somehow. Growing them in terra cotta is good too as evaporation from the pot keeps the roots several degrees cooler. In a bonsai pot you will have to shade them somehow if it gets too hot. But does it get that hot in New York? They can get up to 40C (over 100F) in Tokyo sometimes and I don't think they shade the pots?
Of course black plastic in full sun is the worst!
 

Arcto

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I’m not convinced any of that is sunscald. Maybe it is, I don’t know. But it appears the landscape tree suffered a physical trauma, maybe another tree falling on it that caused the wound and dieback. I don’t know what a Himalya Pine looks like, the two JWP pictures?? What part is the sunscald? JWP smooth bark does eventually split, and become flaky. But usually not for 20 years or so.
You’re right. It could be a number of things. The natural forest here is mostly Lodgepole with some Ponderosa as a minor component. Within 10 miles, Western White and Sugar Pine occur. Whitebark within 20 miles. So a lot of organisms occur here that attack pine. What clued me in was that all the damaged bark on all these trees was located on the south to west side of the trees. No damage like that anywhere else. You should see bark discoloration on those pics of the JWP and Himalayan WP. The bark was originally light gray on them. Now there is tan coloration. Above the cut branches on the Himalayan, and above the graft on the 2nd JWP, there are sunken brown areas that indicate tissue death underneath. It is not an easy thing to identify and I could be mistaken. At any rate, Michael and others have the information from both of us (I think your information is very good by the way) to use as they wish.
 

MichaelS

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Adair M, post: 516549, member: 13405"]
. At any rate, the JBP roots have been removed, and the tree is on its own roots.

That's a good outcome! The value increases automatically.
Only Kokonoe and Zuisho can be reliably propagated by layering.

Any white which is less than about fifteen years from seed is quite easy to layer.
Grafted trees a bit harder but possible.
 

miker

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I have really enjoyed and learned a lot from this thread.

For a Christmas gift for myself, I am in the market for a JWP starter tree of known variety, preferably one of the more/most popular variants for bonsai, and preferably something on its own roots. Like a 2-3 year seedling/clone/graft/cutting.

I see that Brent at EGW had a good selection, but has phased most out. What are some sources of top quality JWP starter(very starter) material?
 

Adair M

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I have really enjoyed and learned a lot from this thread.

For a Christmas gift for myself, I am in the market for a JWP starter tree of known variety, preferably one of the more/most popular variants for bonsai, and preferably something on its own roots. Like a 2-3 year seedling/clone/graft/cutting.

I see that Brent at EGW had a good selection, but has phased most out. What are some sources of top quality JWP starter(very starter) material?
Plant City Bonsai has some grafted JWPs. They ship.
 
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