How to create large black pines?

Bonsai Nut · Dec 22, 2017

Rick Walden said:
I know Frank @Riversedgebonsai said use pond basket/ colander in the ground is good but I'm still not understanding why. I thought the point of pond baskets was for air pruning roots? If u put the pond basket in the ground doesn't this defeat putting it in a pond basket? Also the idea of root pruning is that to get the root ball bigger to force roots toward surface to help with nabari? Not exactly sure about air pruning roots?

Pond baskets are also good for allowing tons of air into the roots. You can water and feed like crazy without worrying about root rot.

Putting a pond basket in the ground helps with temperature stability and will keep roots warm in the winter and cool in the summer. Then every year or so you can pop the pond basket out of the ground and trim any feeder roots that are escaping the basket.

James W. · Dec 22, 2017

Not contradicting BonsaiNut, adding some more info.
The purpose of planting in a pond basket is to develop and maintain the rootball not necessarily the nebari. Out of the ground the roots will air prune and back bud to form many fine feeder roots. In the ground the roots will grow through the holes until they can't grow any bigger around, then they will back bud and form more feeder roots closer to the trunk. When you dig a basket out of the ground you will find many roots growing out into the wild, but they will not be very big and can be trimmed without setting the tree back much. One can get some of the benefits of growing in the ground without having to deal with large long roots. This is good when dealing with species that dislike root work or would make long roots with very few feeders close to the trunk.

River's Edge · Dec 22, 2017

James W. said:
Just a word on planting in colanders or pond baskets or pots. The soil outside the basket needs to be as well draining as the mix inside the basket. If you plant a pond basket with bonsai soil into sticky clay soil (like my yard) you will end up with a pond in a basket. You will notice that @Riversedgebonsai has all his planted in good mix in raised beds.

Important observation. The raised beds also have a drainage layer but not so deep that it creates a perched water effect that is problematic.

River's Edge · Dec 22, 2017

Bonsai Nut said:
Pond baskets are also good for allowing tons of air into the roots. You can water and feed like crazy without worrying about root rot.

Putting a pond basket in the ground helps with temperature stability and will keep roots warm in the winter and cool in the summer. Then every year or so you can pop the pond basket out of the ground and trim any feeder roots that are escaping the basket.

Correct, air pruning is one effect of using colandars or pond baskets in a certain way. Not the only effect and not the only way. After all it is a container with better drainage.

River's Edge · Dec 22, 2017

James W. said:
Not contradicting BonsaiNut, adding some more info.
The purpose of planting in a pond basket is to develop and maintain the rootball not necessarily the nebari. Out of the ground the roots will air prune and back bud to form many fine feeder roots. In the ground the roots will grow through the holes until they can't grow any bigger around, then they will back bud and form more feeder roots closer to the trunk. When you dig a basket out of the ground you will find many roots growing out into the wild, but they will not be very big and can be trimmed without setting the tree back much. One can get some of the benefits of growing in the ground without having to deal with large long roots. This is good when dealing with species that dislike root work or would make long roots with very few feeders close to the trunk.

Correct, combining techniques to obtain combined benefits, developing more than one aspect of the tree at a time.

Gurudas · Dec 22, 2017

Brian Van Fleet said:
That always helps create a radial spread. JBP can be tricky to “collect” when grown in the ground, because the feeder roots get away from the trunk pretty fast (3-4 years). Since they grow fast in general, you can still get pretty good growth in Anderson flats sitting on the ground while reducing the risk of loss associated with transitioning the tree from the ground to a pot.

I'll try it. Thanks for the suggestion!

MrFancyPlants · Dec 22, 2017

Here is mine that has partially escaped the the anderson flat it is in. Almost a year old picture, but not much has been done since, so you get the idea. It has been in the flat about 3 years now, but I've moved around so no real chance to escape until now. The roots could use some work and the top sacrifice could come off as a new one grows out from a low area.
My question is timing and planning going forward. Remove top sacrifice and address roots this spring in one go? Let air prune for a season to develop rootage and then let escape to develop next sacrifice next year? Should I do any bud removal or needle plucking next season if it responds with vigor to the spring work, or plan on waiting another year?

River's Edge · Dec 22, 2017

Rick Walden said:
Ok let me give

MrFancyPlants said:
Here is mine that has partially escaped the the anderson flat it is in. Almost a year old picture, but not much has been done since, so you get the idea. It has been in the flat about 3 years now, but I've moved around so no real chance to escape until now. The roots could use some work and the top sacrifice could come off as a new one grows out from a low area.
My question is timing and planning going forward. Remove top sacrifice and address roots this spring in one go? Let air prune for a season to develop rootage and then let escape to develop next sacrifice next year? Should I do any bud removal or needle plucking next season if it responds with vigor to the spring work, or plan on waiting another year?

Has the trunk reached the size you want? Is the sacrifice top reaching too large a size or in the wrong direction?
What I am getting at is the point that your plan or application of technique should be determined by your desired outcome. The timing should be dependant on what works best for the species.

M. Frary · Dec 22, 2017

James W. said:
When you dig a basket out of the ground you will find many roots growing out into the wild, but they will not be very big and can be trimmed without setting the tree back much.

If you let them grow enough to get girth going they will eat the colander.
I've seen trees eat buckets. Going out the holes and blowing it out in a year. The bucket had to be cut from around the roots. It was a spruce.

MrFancyPlants · Dec 22, 2017

Riversedgebonsai said:
Has the trunk reached the size you want? Is the sacrifice top reaching too large a size or in the wrong direction?
What I am getting at is the point that your plan or application of technique should be determined by your desired outcome. The timing should be dependant on what works best for the species.

It is a black pine if that was unknown as far as asking for advice on timing. And I think the top section has reached it’s desired girdth, hence thinking that it is time to remove and start another sacrifice (or two) further down the trunk to encourage taper.

River's Edge · Dec 22, 2017

When reducing a sacrifice apex i prefer the timing to be when the tree has just started to push hard , early spring, that way the engine is revving up and the energy is directed elsewhere. As in the new sacrifice top. For me that is around the beginning of June. Also i tend to reduce the side branches and lower needles on the new sacrifice top to direct the energy to the top of the new apex. Keep the lower foliage on the tree to feed the roots and keep the engine going. Always a balancing act.
I would only repot if the drainage has been adversely affected.

MrFancyPlants · Dec 22, 2017

The soil isn’t great with a bunch of turface and recycled soil to fill the flat. It seems to be draining fine. when I put it in the flat I was probably too gentle with the roots. What I think is overdue is making sure they are distributed well for a nice neberi. It was an air-layer that my friend took, so the roots are probably not terrible, but mostly a question-mark at this point.
I don’t mind slowing it down to get the roots right and then letting it escape to boost the upcoming sacrifice branches.

Anthony · Dec 22, 2017

@MrFancyPlants ,

we chose the most aggressively growing seed.
What was obtained was plants reaching 30 to 36 inches, and having a girth of
1 inch in a 10 inch wide by around 3 inch deep container.

With the cut down, to 4 inch in height, the tree spent the whole year [ 2017 ]
growing new shoots and getting ready to start long shoots again.
[ Another Bonsai Today author suggested 3 " ]

Next stage is a larger pot and a depth of no more than 5 inches.

Observations also showed plants growing to 30 / 36 inches but only 1/2 inch
trunk thickening.

Soil was a simple mix of 5 mm gravel and compost. About 70 to 30 compost by
volume and the pots are porous earthenware.

We tried to follow the Bonsai Today Article to the letter.

@M. Frary ,

Mike, though we are now testing the J,B,pine colander ground grow, the results
on the other trees have shown that after removal from the ground.
The ravaged colander reproduced the fine feeder roots after 3 to 5 months.
You could then remove any super thick roots.

Additionally, that double colander technique is to encourage and produce
thick surface roots.
The nebari of the J.B.pine seems to happen naturally, the cutting of the seedling
is for buds to form low on the trunk for super trunk thickening.

If you have the magazine article look at the earlier images with the low branches.

Next stage is to also see if in say a 12 to 16 inch, 5 inch deep porous earthenware container
one can keep the long sacrificial, branches going and get 3 to 5 inch thick
trunks in say 6 years.

We are also using the woody cuttings from these trees to see if we can keep
repeating the technique and improving the quality.
Good Day
Anthony

Thin trunk

River's Edge · Dec 22, 2017

MrFancyPlants said:
The soil isn’t great with a bunch of turface and recycled soil to fill the flat. It seems to be draining fine. when I put it in the flat I was probably too gentle with the roots. What I think is overdue is making sure they are distributed well for a nice neberi. It was an air-layer that my friend took, so the roots are probably not terrible, but mostly a question-mark at this point.
I don’t mind slowing it down to get the roots right and then letting it escape to boost the upcoming sacrifice branches.

That makes sense and for all the right reasons, improve soil, improve roots, ensure the foundation is set to proceed. Take your time and do it right. Discipline, focus and fundamentals spell success.
Here is a picture illustrating the concept of Apex sacrifice treatment while developing the branches and foliage below. This way you can still thicken the trunk while advancing the development of the rest of the tree.

DirkvanDreven · Dec 23, 2017

has anyone been documenting the transfer of young pines from big colanders or pondbaskets to small bonsaipots?
That part of growing trees stil makes me nervous!

Adair M · Dec 23, 2017

MrFancyPlants said:
It is a black pine if that was unknown as far as asking for advice on timing. And I think the top section has reached it’s desired girdth, hence thinking that it is time to remove and start another sacrifice (or two) further down the trunk to encourage taper.

May I suggest that you change your proposed method? Getting a sacrifice branch to come from the lower trunk is not easy. Even if you let one grow, it won’t be until it is the highest point on the tree that it will start to grow vigorously. It might take two or three years before it’s the tallest point and THEN it starts to be vigorous and build wood. After a couple years, you cut it off. Now what do you have? A huge scar on the lower trunk!

No, the way to build a trunk is by repeated chops of the mainline trunk. Chop the trunk where you have several branches. Choose one to be a branch, one to be the next section of trunk, and one to be the sacrifice. It’s best if the sacrifice is in the rear, but it really doesn’t matter. Let the sacrifice run for a couple years, keep the branch and next trunk section
cut back. Here’s the thing: a sacrifice branch coming from the top of the tree will build wood faster than a sacrifice lower down. The tree assumes the sacrifice will be the trunk, so it puts wood on the sacrifice, and all parts below it. It also heals wounds faster. So, about the time when the chop is covered over, it’s time to remove the sacrifice.

Next, look at your next section of trunk, and find another good place to repeat the process. Find a branch, a new trunk and a new sacrifice. And repeat the process. As many times as it takes until you are satisfied with the size of the trunk.

This builds taper. It also heals the scars from the sacrifice branches. It’s not fast, but it makes the best trunks.

Guys, please remember that the guy in the Bonsai Today article was making SHOHIN JBP! Once you get to a 3 inch trunk, that’s about as big as you can squeeze into a Shohin pot. If you’re going for a larger than Shohin tree, in the ground is the way to go.

@Anthony: remember that article is a translation of a translation from Japanese to Spanish to English. There are errors. The ages of the trees pictured is probably wrong, as no one else has been able to replicate his results. (An experiment is only considered to be valid if it is reproduceable. That is, others can do the same thing and achieve the same result. No one has.). And interestingly, I have not heard of any others advocating the double colander technique. For regular sized bonsai, the Japanese field grow their trees.

iant · Dec 23, 2017

Growth builds girth, whether or not the growth is from apical or lower branches. Lower branches can be quite vigorous on JBP. Lower scars heal just fine... and there's also nothing wrong with apical sacrifices like Adair recommends.

River's Edge · Dec 23, 2017

Adair M said:
May I suggest that you change your proposed method? Getting a sacrifice branch to come from the lower trunk is not easy. Even if you let one grow, it won’t be until it is the highest point on the tree that it will start to grow vigorously. It might take two or three years before it’s the tallest point and THEN it starts to be vigorous and build wood. After a couple years, you cut it off. Now what do you have? A huge scar on the lower trunk!

No, the way to build a trunk is by repeated chops of the mainline trunk. Chop the trunk where you have several branches. Choose one to be a branch, one to be the next section of trunk, and one to be the sacrifice. It’s best if the sacrifice is in the rear, but it really doesn’t matter. Let the sacrifice run for a couple years, keep the branch and next trunk section
cut back. Here’s the thing: a sacrifice branch coming from the top of the tree will build wood faster than a sacrifice lower down. The tree assumes the sacrifice will be the trunk, so it puts wood on the sacrifice, and all parts below it. It also heals wounds faster. So, about the time when the chop is covered over, it’s time to remove the sacrifice.

Next, look at your next section of trunk, and find another good place to repeat the process. Find a branch, a new trunk and a new sacrifice. And repeat the process. As many times as it takes until you are satisfied with the size of the trunk.

This builds taper. It also heals the scars from the sacrifice branches. It’s not fast, but it makes the best trunks.

Guys, please remember that the guy in the Bonsai Today article was making SHOHIN JBP! Once you get to a 3 inch trunk, that’s about as big as you can squeeze into a Shohin pot. If you’re going for a larger than Shohin tree, in the ground is the way to go.

@Anthony: remember that article is a translation of a translation from Japanese to Spanish to English. There are errors. The ages of the trees pictured is probably wrong, as no one else has been able to replicate his results. (An experiment is only considered to be valid if it is reproduceable. That is, others can do the same thing and achieve the same result. No one has.). And interestingly, I have not heard of any others advocating the double colander technique. For regular sized bonsai, the Japanese field grow their trees.

I have found the colandars useful in the initial stages of JBP growth and as suggested for smaller trees in particular. Those that are destined for medium to larger trees move to the colandars in the grow beds. And then on to larger individual grow out boxes or Andersen flats. If i was only focussing on trunk girth i would stick with inground methods. However, i deeply dislike working on trees while laying on the ground so i don,t use that method. Call it a concession to old age.
The translation issues are well known and i concur they created some frustration for myself in the beginning. It makes sense that the overall root mass has a bearing on the limit to growth.

Adair M · Dec 23, 2017

iant said:
Growth builds girth, whether or not the growth is from apical or lower branches. Lower branches can be quite vigorous on JBP. Lower scars heal just fine... and there's also nothing wrong with apical sacrifices like Adair recommends.

The problem with the lower scars healing is if you use lower branches as sacrifices and then have large scars, and you start refinement, those scars won’t heal! Once you start decandling, there’s no more trunk thickening. All the tree’s energy gets devoted to making that second flush of needles. There’s none left for developing wood! When a JBP is not decandled, the needles mature in early to mid summer. The long needles keep making sugars, and in the fall the tree uses those sugars to make cellulose wood. A decandled Pine suddenly has no new productive needles last year’s needles can sustain the tree, but it had to replace all that spring growth! It spends the entire summer and fall regrowing needles, and just as they start to mature and produce lots of sugar, cold weather stops them! So, there’s been no to very little new wood added to the trunk.

And the same is true for building callous to cover wounds. The tree focuses on making food factories (needles). All else is secondary.

I have a very nice formal upright JBP that’s been in the refinement stage for the past 20 to 25 years. At some time in the past, a low branch was removed from the lower back. It’s been properly cared for, and sealed, but there’s been hardly any callous tissue trying to cover wound.

Dan Robinson even gave a critique of one of my other JBP that had some small scars on the front. He said that since the tree is so highly refined, it will take decades for them to cover over.

Anthony · Dec 24, 2017

@Adair M ,
Sifu,

what you see me commenting on is what is happening.

So, at 4 years, in a 10 x 3 [ 2.5 inch ] deep container, the trees are hitting 1 inch.
If the tree then grows 2 more branches with that capacity, we will hit a 3 inch trunk.
A 3 inch trunk for us is a 15 to 18 inch tall tree.
That is normally as big as is grown down here because of the weight factor.

This year in a bigger pot, I will let you know visually how it went.

I am not sure 3 to 15/18 inches is shohin ?

Additionally the lower section, as you can see in the image above, is covered in
buds, so many choices.

Thus far no problems.

Adding on branchlets would begin x year later.

BY the way this is -------------------- Bonsai Today 12, page 19, and we are hybridisng
the comments on page 31.

We are checking the age - 5 years on page 26. and trunk size 3".

If we hit it, You have to River Dance. Okay

Thanks for responding.
Merry Christmas,
Anthony

* If you see no comments on Surface Roots, we got that on the first tree
naturally.
Last stages, branchlets and the elusive shortened needles.
Stayeth tuned.

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