Gustavo Martins
Omono
down? in the drawing of John Naka you posted for inspiration the branch is going upwards, not down.
Thought Process on Foliage Reduction - Lodgepole Pine
- Thread starter Josh88
- Start date
down? in the drawing of John Naka you posted for inspiration the branch is going upwards, not down.
Giga
Masterpiece
The other issue I see is that a lot of the tip are facing down and not up, and the pads are kinda all over the place. Master that, wiring really, and you'll be gold as this will be a nice tree
Lol!!! The first tree just got restyled. At the new planting angle. But styled in the fall. It will be repotted to that new angle later.NO! Not My theory. Depends on trees usable roots. Observe 1st tree leaned and tied as pot too small to balance tree, 2nd tree has deeper pot, 3rd tree is not pine(?).
Oh great self proclaimed master know it all now you are here nothing anyone else says matters any longer. So nice your greatness could show up to invalidate anyone else once again!
The third tree was used because it was to show it being in the same style as the OP’s desired design.
Josh88
Shohin
I'm not necessarily looking to copy the Naka drawing, but rather taking inspiration from it. It was suggested that I bring branches further down and closer to the trunk to compact the image, but the top left branch in the virt I drew does leave the trunk moving upwards similar to the drawing, as if it were forming a new apex after the upper branches would have died. I will try pulling the lower branches down further to compact the image and see how it looks.
Josh88
Shohin
I definitely need work on laying pads out convincingly. As it currently sits I think the pads are way too wide, and I will likely remove some of the main branches that form them as I get better interior branching and back budding. Any suggestions or advice on pad formation in general?
Giga
Masterpiece
it's something that comes with time and practice and looking at it done - Ryan Niel videos are great for this if your not signed up for that I would recommend that to see it in action. Or just google it, though I think Bjorn has a few videos on it but they are short
parhamr
Omono
@Josh88 wide pads with plenty of space for light collection will be useful at first for tree vigor. The narrow, “feminine looking” branches and pads can come later!
Regarding branches going up or down: native lodgepole almost universally have branches exiting downwards. Some of them then compete for leader and will turn straight upwards.
Regarding branches going up or down: native lodgepole almost universally have branches exiting downwards. Some of them then compete for leader and will turn straight upwards.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
make sure that the branches that make up the pad start out being closer together and widen out as the grow outwards like the fingers on a fan. I have seen some people do it the other way around where the branches were forced inward toward each other from the ends so that the growing tips become more like the pads we all covet. Don't do that. Bonsai is about details. You can also cut the needles off of the bottom of each shoot. You can pull them off but I have found cutting to be a better option. This will open up the pad to light.
In the resources area, I have a thread on making pads. I use a JBP as the subject. I think the title of the thread has the word “fishhooks” in it.
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
Josh88
Shohin
Thanks for the links!
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
That's the one......I was looking in the resource sub forum.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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Nice tree, I would love to have that sitting on my bench.
You repotted in 2017. I would not remove any foliage, or do any bud management in 2018. It is good you wired it out, this allows light to get into the interior of the tree.
This is a Lodgepole Pine, P contorta. It is a single flush pine, like P, sylvestris, & P. mugo. It is closely related to its eastern cousin, P. banksiana - The Jack pine. They will hybridize in the eastern Rockies where their ranges overlap. Key is being a single flush pine the horticulture is as for P. sylvestris or P. mugo or P. banksiana. Read up the how and when techniques are applied to Scott's pines and or Mugo pines. I personally am using Vance Wood's schedule for when you do what as the guide for my Jack pines. My climate and Vance's are very similar, so I feel comfortable with the ''Mugo calendar''. This means no work, no pruning, no repotting, until after the Summer Solstice. Also no routine removal of old needles. Old needles are kept and cherished, especially if they are in an area a back bud is desired. Only remove needles from areas you never want to have a back bud sprout in.
I am 4 years in on owning Jack pines, 3 named cultivars and several seedlings. Everything is in development, or early phases of refinement. My P. banksiana 'Cherokee' was a 25 or 30 year old piece of grafted nursery stock. It had lost all its interior foliage. Here is what I did
#1 - year one - repotted into Anderson flat. This was done in August. Had to remove more than 50% of the roots to get the tree into the flat. This was major root work. remaining growing season had zero further growth. New buds set only at the ends of branches.
#2 - year 2 - flush of spring growth was lack luster, mainly at the ends of branches, did not get a lot of growth. Just fertilized and kept watered, allowed tree to recover. End of year, wired the branches and brought them down, laid them out more or less flat, allowing light to get into interior. Removed branches that were clearly not going to be needed, total less than 25% of the foliage. That is all. No official styling, just letting it get vigorous. I did thin branch clusters generally to 2 branches at each point. If there was a whorl of more than 3 branches, I reduced it to a trunk and 1 sometimes 2 branches to allow future choices.
#3 year 3 - spring the tree had its first ''normal'' or healthy flush of growth. Still mostly at branch tips. Very few buds in the interior, at most two or three. Did zero pruning, Fertilized and watered, End of summer - early autumn evaluation - I had many, many more buds showing. Maybe a couple dozen buds had formed on bare branches in the interior. Adjusted the wiring in autumn. Pruned out downward growing new growth, Thinned the few locations where I had clusters of more than 2 or 3 branches. Put it away for the winter.
#4 - Fourth growing season - maybe 6 of the dozen interior buds actually extended into new growth, Nice reasonably normal budding in the regions with needles at the ends of branches. In time this tree will get dense again. I allowed the tree to grow out all summer. No bud pruning, no shoot removal just fertilizer and let it grow. This autumn I looked and I have at least 2 dozen buds that have formed on old wood, bare of needles. Jack Pines will form buds on old wood!!! Will these buds grow? It seems that they don't necessarily start the year they form, it seems it is the second year they activate.
#5 - the fifth growing season will be 2018. The 6 or so new shoots on old wood are a start, They are still too small (weak) to prune a branch back to. My hope is summer of 2018 more of the buds on old branches will activate and elongate. Sometime after summer solstice of 2018 I will decide if the tree is vigorous enough to prune off shoots at the ends of the long branches. This will be the pruning that will hopefully activate the several dozen buds that have been sitting there without actually growing. I might wait one more season if the spring flush of growth is not at least as good as the previous year. I'm trying to let the actual health of the tree govern what I do, not some book or internet blog somewhere. I re-evaluate the health of the tree before I do anything, each time I do something. It has now been in the Anderson Flat for 3 1/2 growing seasons, (August repot) I won't repot for several more years, unless there is a change in drainage. Right now, drainage is excellent. Next repotting will likely be the post styling move to a bonsai pot. This tree is still not ready to be officially ''styled''. I am not limiting myself to a specific design, I am keeping the majority of branches so I have options down the road. I have 2 different plans in mind as a possibility, one is to more or less preserve the majority of its current height (about 30 inches) the other is to bring it down about half. Either way, I'm keeping all the branches required for either option. I have only removed those which have no use in any of the several alternatives I have thought of.
So that is how I have handled my Jack Pine. I imagine your Lodgepole pine would respond well to similar treatment. I realize you are in the Pacific Northwest, your climate is very different than mine. So read the different treatments for Scotts pine and for Mugo pine, and consider how you would handle your tree, I think you need to let it grow, as I have, to get back budding. And I think you will get back buds if you do so. You can see by my tree, getting back buds is not a ''one summer wonder''. It takes time to get the tree strong and vigorous.
Attached photos are the Jack Pine 'Chippewa' that I used as this example.
as purchased
2017
graft union nearly invisible
healthy ''normal'' flush of growth, good sign it is getting more vigor, roots have finally recovered. 2017
You repotted in 2017. I would not remove any foliage, or do any bud management in 2018. It is good you wired it out, this allows light to get into the interior of the tree.
This is a Lodgepole Pine, P contorta. It is a single flush pine, like P, sylvestris, & P. mugo. It is closely related to its eastern cousin, P. banksiana - The Jack pine. They will hybridize in the eastern Rockies where their ranges overlap. Key is being a single flush pine the horticulture is as for P. sylvestris or P. mugo or P. banksiana. Read up the how and when techniques are applied to Scott's pines and or Mugo pines. I personally am using Vance Wood's schedule for when you do what as the guide for my Jack pines. My climate and Vance's are very similar, so I feel comfortable with the ''Mugo calendar''. This means no work, no pruning, no repotting, until after the Summer Solstice. Also no routine removal of old needles. Old needles are kept and cherished, especially if they are in an area a back bud is desired. Only remove needles from areas you never want to have a back bud sprout in.
I am 4 years in on owning Jack pines, 3 named cultivars and several seedlings. Everything is in development, or early phases of refinement. My P. banksiana 'Cherokee' was a 25 or 30 year old piece of grafted nursery stock. It had lost all its interior foliage. Here is what I did
#1 - year one - repotted into Anderson flat. This was done in August. Had to remove more than 50% of the roots to get the tree into the flat. This was major root work. remaining growing season had zero further growth. New buds set only at the ends of branches.
#2 - year 2 - flush of spring growth was lack luster, mainly at the ends of branches, did not get a lot of growth. Just fertilized and kept watered, allowed tree to recover. End of year, wired the branches and brought them down, laid them out more or less flat, allowing light to get into interior. Removed branches that were clearly not going to be needed, total less than 25% of the foliage. That is all. No official styling, just letting it get vigorous. I did thin branch clusters generally to 2 branches at each point. If there was a whorl of more than 3 branches, I reduced it to a trunk and 1 sometimes 2 branches to allow future choices.
#3 year 3 - spring the tree had its first ''normal'' or healthy flush of growth. Still mostly at branch tips. Very few buds in the interior, at most two or three. Did zero pruning, Fertilized and watered, End of summer - early autumn evaluation - I had many, many more buds showing. Maybe a couple dozen buds had formed on bare branches in the interior. Adjusted the wiring in autumn. Pruned out downward growing new growth, Thinned the few locations where I had clusters of more than 2 or 3 branches. Put it away for the winter.
#4 - Fourth growing season - maybe 6 of the dozen interior buds actually extended into new growth, Nice reasonably normal budding in the regions with needles at the ends of branches. In time this tree will get dense again. I allowed the tree to grow out all summer. No bud pruning, no shoot removal just fertilizer and let it grow. This autumn I looked and I have at least 2 dozen buds that have formed on old wood, bare of needles. Jack Pines will form buds on old wood!!! Will these buds grow? It seems that they don't necessarily start the year they form, it seems it is the second year they activate.
#5 - the fifth growing season will be 2018. The 6 or so new shoots on old wood are a start, They are still too small (weak) to prune a branch back to. My hope is summer of 2018 more of the buds on old branches will activate and elongate. Sometime after summer solstice of 2018 I will decide if the tree is vigorous enough to prune off shoots at the ends of the long branches. This will be the pruning that will hopefully activate the several dozen buds that have been sitting there without actually growing. I might wait one more season if the spring flush of growth is not at least as good as the previous year. I'm trying to let the actual health of the tree govern what I do, not some book or internet blog somewhere. I re-evaluate the health of the tree before I do anything, each time I do something. It has now been in the Anderson Flat for 3 1/2 growing seasons, (August repot) I won't repot for several more years, unless there is a change in drainage. Right now, drainage is excellent. Next repotting will likely be the post styling move to a bonsai pot. This tree is still not ready to be officially ''styled''. I am not limiting myself to a specific design, I am keeping the majority of branches so I have options down the road. I have 2 different plans in mind as a possibility, one is to more or less preserve the majority of its current height (about 30 inches) the other is to bring it down about half. Either way, I'm keeping all the branches required for either option. I have only removed those which have no use in any of the several alternatives I have thought of.
So that is how I have handled my Jack Pine. I imagine your Lodgepole pine would respond well to similar treatment. I realize you are in the Pacific Northwest, your climate is very different than mine. So read the different treatments for Scotts pine and for Mugo pine, and consider how you would handle your tree, I think you need to let it grow, as I have, to get back budding. And I think you will get back buds if you do so. You can see by my tree, getting back buds is not a ''one summer wonder''. It takes time to get the tree strong and vigorous.
Attached photos are the Jack Pine 'Chippewa' that I used as this example.
as purchased
2017
graft union nearly invisible
healthy ''normal'' flush of growth, good sign it is getting more vigor, roots have finally recovered. 2017
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
OMG!!
I just realized that my Ryan Neil magic decoder ring is complete!
Sampson & Delilah: cut off too much ____ is bad, bad, bad: roots for 'strength from roots' species; foliage for 'strength from foliage' species.
Conifers that behave as lodgepoles and Douglas firs do are "extending species" whose 'strength' comes from the vascular system - right?
I just wish he would speak some common language like english or japanese or even arborist-speak. I love a challenge, but this lingo of his is so much of my time wasted.?
Josh88
Shohin
Thanks Leo. Do you happen to know why these species respond best to repotting after the Summer solstice?
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
With possible exception of White Pine("possible" exception?)tips will turn selves upward at next growth. If not final finish before display is no worry
.Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Aside from major root butcher does not seem such hot time for repot. Why not late Winter like most seem to do
?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The idea of turning the tips up is two-fold; one, to make a stylistic statement, and two, to make a decision that is horticulturally the right thing to do for the plant. Otherwise you are forcing the spending auxin resources to turn these portions of the branches up that could be diverted into back budding. Also the needles are basically the solar panels the tree needs to grow. It they (the branches) are forced to expend resources to tun this stuff up, then something is needed for back budding where is that going to come from? Just my opinionWith possible exception of White Pine("possible" exception?)tips will turn selves upward at next growth. If not final finish before display is no worry
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Too often we avoid doing things that we know we should do because we may have become lazy about these kinds of details that are none the less critical. Everything we do causes a tree to react, we have to make sure that we are controlling that reaction and directing it to do what we want it to do. Turning up the tips to receive light is one of them we may not think of as critical.
