Cherry tree chop; now or wait?

I bought this cherry tree and root pruned it quite heavily last weekend.
It still has a good number of fine feeder roots spread all around the trunks though.
Should I chop it down now to releave some stress on the pruned roots as I expect it to start flowering within a week or so?
Or is it still better for the tree to wait until winter to chop it down?

only do one big operation at a time....trunk chopping won't relieve stress...it will create lots of stress

Wait, you need the leaves that are coming out to help grow new roots. The flowers shouldn't tax the root system but don't let it make fruit.

Root reduction and top reduction should be done at the same time with most deciduous trees. By leaving all that top growth over a sharply reduced root system, he leaves that come out could have a difficult time. Without the root system to send them moisture, expect some wilting and die off. Tree should recover, but it could be ugly.

The "one insult at a time" thing is primarily aimed at conifers, which take more time to work. Deciduous trees, for the most part, are more immediately resilient with drastic root reduction and trunk chops.

For instance it is standard procedure here in the U.S. to chop 95 of the roots off species such as hornbeam Bald cypress, elm and others at collection and do a 90-95 percent trunk chop at the same time...

rockm said:

For instance it is standard procedure here in the U.S. to chop 95 of the roots off species such as hornbeam Bald cypress, elm and others at collection and do a 90-95 percent trunk chop at the same time...

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Wow those are pretty high numbers. You obviously know more about bonsai than I do but I can not recall ever seeing those percentages put together. Makes me rethink my 50/50 strategy on my chinese elms.

AZbonsai said:

Wow those are pretty high numbers. You obviously know more about bonsai than I do but I can not recall ever seeing those percentages put together. Makes me rethink my 50/50 strategy on my chinese elms.

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I'm talking about collected trees taken from the ground. Those numbers aren't unusual. The in ground root system of a tree is pretty sprawling depending on the tree. Chopping a 25-40 foot tree to two feet is also a substantial reduction, so those numbers aren't unusual.

In already containerized trees, such as those in nursery containers and repotting trees in bonsai pots, I typically remove 75 percent or more depending on the condition of the root system.

People new to bonsai tend to be timid with roots on deciduous trees. Substantial reduction can be done with a lot of species. Elm, bald cypress, hornbeam are among the most durable and responsive to this.

Good to know...I would still be in the timid camp

Thank you all for your input!
I reduced its root system by about 65 %, a thorough root pruning was really needed.
I am hoping the 6 days since repotting won't matter all too much, so I will take @rockm 's advice and chop it down today

rockm said:

Root reduction and top reduction should be done at the same time with most deciduous trees. By leaving all that top growth over a sharply reduced root system, he leaves that come out could have a difficult time. Without the root system to send them moisture, expect some wilting and die off. Tree should recover, but it could be ugly.

The "one insult at a time" thing is primarily aimed at conifers, which take more time to work. Deciduous trees, for the most part, are more immediately resilient with drastic root reduction and trunk chops.

For instance it is standard procedure here in the U.S. to chop 95 of the roots off species such as hornbeam Bald cypress, elm and others at collection and do a 90-95 percent trunk chop at the same time...

Click to expand...

just because you can get away with it sometimes doesn't mean it's a good idea..

the more branch tips you have, the more auxin is being sent to the roots telling them to grow and the faster the roots will recover. by removing the branches and leaves and the roots, you will be slowing things down significantly...what resources does the tree have left? some stored resources for sure, but you've removed most of them severely setting the tree back (if it lives)

this seems to me like a classic american mistake...trying to do as much as you can as quickly as you can....patience!

rockm said:

Root reduction and top reduction should be done at the same time with most deciduous trees. By leaving all that top growth over a sharply reduced root system, he leaves that come out could have a difficult time. Without the root system to send them moisture, expect some wilting and die off. Tree should recover, but it could be ugly.

The "one insult at a time" thing is primarily aimed at conifers, which take more time to work. Deciduous trees, for the most part, are more immediately resilient with drastic root reduction and trunk chops.

For instance it is standard procedure here in the U.S. to chop 95 of the roots off species such as hornbeam Bald cypress, elm and others at collection and do a 90-95 percent trunk chop at the same time...

Click to expand...

rockm is correct about the leaves....some will dry up, but it's a deciduous tree! the leaves will fall off anyway down the road! let the tree decide how much foliage it can handle

erb.75 said:

just because you can get away with it sometimes doesn't mean it's a good idea..

the more branch tips you have, the more auxin is being sent to the roots telling them to grow and the faster the roots will recover. by removing the branches and leaves and the roots, you will be slowing things down significantly...what resources does the tree have left? some stored resources for sure, but you've removed most of them severely setting the tree back (if it lives)

this seems to me like a classic american mistake...trying to do as much as you can as quickly as you can....patience!

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Oh good lord dude. You ever see the root reductions done by Japanese masters? They are significant and far more drastic than anything I've seen intermediate and beginner level bonsaists here in the U.S. do. If anything, Americans (and Europeans too) are far too timid when it comes to root work.

You misunderstand the timing for those root reductions--they are done just before bud break, as the tree has mostly completed transfer of energy to it top away from the roots. Timing is important.

Roots will also develop more quickly in recovery without having to deal with a mass of other roots and the soggy soil that clings to them.

I learned 25 years ago that I was too timid working roots because of the same concerns you have. I learned when I saw what bonsai professionals who had been doing bonsai for a long time did. I was shocked at the amount of roots taken off of deciduous trees at repotting. I also learned in collecting trees that trying to "preserve" a huge root mass actually complicate things tremendously.

I haven't lost a tree in a very very long time as a result of root work.

Patience is good. Being timid is not.

rockm said:

Oh good lord dude. You ever see the root reductions done by Japanese masters? They are significant and far more drastic than anything I've seen intermediate and beginner level bonsaists here in the U.S. do. If anything, Americans (and Europeans too) are far too timid when it comes to root work.

You misunderstand the timing for those root reductions--they are done just before bud break, as the tree has mostly completed transfer of energy to it top away from the roots. Timing is important.

Roots will also develop more quickly in recovery without having to deal with a mass of other roots and the soggy soil that clings to them.

I learned 25 years ago that I was too timid working roots because of the same concerns you have. I learned when I saw what bonsai professionals who had been doing bonsai for a long time did. I was shocked at the amount of roots taken off of deciduous trees at repotting. I also learned in collecting trees that trying to "preserve" a huge root mass actually complicate things tremendously.

I haven't lost a tree in a very very long time as a result of root work.

Patience is good. Being timid is not.

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I agree with heavy root reductions being OK for some deciduous species, but not WITH the trunk chop too! that was my only point

erb.75 said:

I agree with heavy root reductions being OK for some deciduous species, but not WITH the trunk chop too! that was my only point

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Don't know if you've ever collected trees, but -- not topping them at collection stresses or kills most of the foliage above as there are no real roots to support it. Additionally, trying to move a 20 foot unchopped trunk is a fool's errand. It's impossible. Same with larger nursery trees.

Trunk chops and initial heavy root work are part and parcel of styling of most trees that are being cut down to begin their bonsai training.

rockm said:

Don't know if you've ever collected trees, but -- not topping them at collection stresses or kills most of the foliage above as there are no real roots to support it. Additionally, trying to move a 20 foot unchopped trunk is a fool's errand. It's impossible. Same with larger nursery trees.

Trunk chops and initial heavy root work are part and parcel of styling of most trees that are being cut down to begin their bonsai training.

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Yes, I've collected trees before. Are we talking about Ingvill's tree or collected trees? If possible with collected trees, you prune the top one year and keep it in the ground, then the next year you dig it up. Sometimes it's better to even take more time than that (like 2 years for root pruning) to ensure survival if it's a killer tree

I always try to leave as many roots/foliage mass as I can when collecting. I've never lost a tree when collecting. Can't say what the survival rate would be for trunk chop + massive root reduction all on one day, but I bet it's less than 100%

Even though the top gets stressed from lack of roots, it doesn't really matter. you will be able to replace the top growth that dies very easily. Objective #1 when collecting is survival. It's not making sure the top of the tree looks presentable and nice. You need the auxin that the growth tips provide on the branches.

This is why the best time to collect deciduous is in the early spring, right before you have leaves since there is no foliage to stress out yet, and the sugars (resources) have moved away from the roots which allow you to chop them (the roots) heavily as you have stated

it sounds like we have two different approaches. yours will get results faster and will be easier for you, which is a valid reason to do something. mine is more conservative and probably better for the tree but slower and more of a pain in the neck. It is a definite pain in the neck trying to dig a 15 foot tall tree, pot it up, and preserve the top.

thanks for your comments @rockm . gives us all food for thought. That's why I love this forum!

@Ingvill please keep us up to date on your tree. If you trunk chop it, let's monitor it though out the summer and see what happens with monthly pics? that would be fun

Thanks! Very interesting, I learn new things every time I log into this forum, and dunno what I'd do without this place.
Yep, I will keep you posted

erb.75 said:

I always try to leave as many roots/foliage mass as I can when collecting. I've never lost a tree when collecting. Can't say what the survival rate would be for trunk chop + massive root reduction all on one day, but I bet it's less than 100%

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you'd be VERY VERY wrong. Of course this depends on species, but most deciduous trees respond very well to it. Ask some professional eastern collectors about how they collect stuff.
https://bonsai-south.com/craftsmanship/hornbeam-craftsmanship-2/
https://bonsai-south.com/craftsmanship/cedar-elm-craftsmanship/
https://bonsai-south.com/craftsmanship/bald-cypress-craftsmanship/

Zach Smith, who has been collecting for well over 25 years now, does this treatment with many species, including elms hawthorns and other stuff. I know for a fact his collection tools for cedar elm involves only a battery powered reciprocating saw and a strong son...He uses the saw to cut through a circle two or three inches out from the trunk all the way around the tree and removes all the field soil. His son is there to rock the tree back and forth to break big tap roots and leverage the tree so Zach can cut under it. If there are a couple of feeder roots left that's great, but they really aren't completely necessary. He then chops 15-20 feet of the top off leaving what is pictured.

I can say I use this same technique on Carolina hornbeam, cedar elm, blackhaw, wisteria, hackberry, beech (in some cases), bald cypress, bittersweet and a few other species.

He, and I, have had better than a 95 percent success rate over the years using this method.

BTW, if you haven't lost a collected tree, you probably haven't collected more than a dozen, or you're collecting seedlings or saplings less than an inch in diameter. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not that complicated to get a lot of roots with those...