All aboard the Mugo train!

tree4me

Shohin
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For what it's worth I think your work is very good. You need to remove more but that can wait.
Thanks it means alot. I have 3 pines all mugos and have read and reread the posts and resource to do my best to get them to thrive. Felt good to start them on there way.
 

Vance Wood

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Thanks it means alot. I have 3 pines all mugos and have read and reread the posts and resource to do my best to get them to thrive. Felt good to start them on there way.
How about some pictures. It is possible to imagine a lot of things but photos are worth a lot of words.
 

Lazylightningny

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tree4me

Shohin
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How about some pictures. It is possible to imagine a lot of things but photos are worth a lot of words.
Here's the one in post #2799 as purchased in 10/2016. I'm outta wire, ordered and waiting, so I couldn't work the other 2. Will workem this long weekend though. They're both in this awesome thread though.

Before
Mugo 1.JPG

After
wired mugo front.jpg
 

M. Frary

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Here's the one in post #2799 as purchased in 10/2016. I'm outta wire, ordered and waiting, so I couldn't work the other 2. Will workem this long weekend though. They're both in this awesome thread though.

Before
View attachment 193379

After
View attachment 193381
That's going to be nice someday soon.
 

Vance Wood

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Here's the one in post #2799 as purchased in 10/2016. I'm outta wire, ordered and waiting, so I couldn't work the other 2. Will workem this long weekend though. They're both in this awesome thread though.

Before
View attachment 193379

After
View attachment 193381
There is one thing you are really going to have to consider in the next year or two and that is the removal of a rather significant branch emerging from the inside of the extreme curve on the left. You are going to have to consider the same issue for the curve above on the right. All and all you have done a really nice job with this material and are to be applauded. You obviously have an eye for this stuff.
 

Vance Wood

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There is one thing you are really going to have to consider in the next year or two and that is the removal of a rather significant branch emerging from the inside of the extreme curve on the left. You are going to have to consider the same issue for the curve above on the right. All and all you have done a really nice job with this material and are to be applauded. You obviously have an eye for this stuff.
I am not a strict follower of rules but the older I get and the more I have learned about bonsai there are some things that are rules for a reason. Not because some Asian mucky-muck decided that he did not like this or did not like that but because certain things make the artistic quality of the bonsai less than it can be. Two of them are branches at the inside of curves, which affect this tree, and bar branches; branches directly accross horizontally from each other on the trunk. Both of these problems are common in Pines and Mugos in-particular. Realizing their presence is the first step in eliminating or hiding them.
 

brewmeister83

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My "Big" spring Mugo purchase...

IMG_0533.JPG IMG_0535.JPG

Got 5 of these "Valley Cushion" cultivars. Less than 5 years old and they're dwarf to boot!
Needles are only about an inch long, and that's before any bonsai techniques.
Might take a while to bulk them up for a decent shohin, they only grow 3-5 inches/year.
Guess I just bought myself a couple of retirement presents 30 years early ;)
 

Vance Wood

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Don't give up on these guys yet or ignore them either, most Mugos will surprise you in the end. Once upon a time in a world far far away every body told me you cannot make a bonsai out of a Mugo Pine. Now; I cannot find them in nurseries because they sell out like fish at a cat festival. Having anyone on this site, or any other for that matter, post a question or a picture about a Mugo was almost unheard of except for that one solo idiot from Michigan. Now look at this thread; 141 posts and still going.
 

brewmeister83

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Don't give up on these guys yet or ignore them either, most Mugos will surprise you in the end. Once upon a time in a world far far away every body told me you cannot make a bonsai out of a Mugo Pine. Now; I cannot find them in nurseries because they sell out like fish at a cat festival. Having anyone on this site, or any other for that matter, post a question or a picture about a Mugo was almost unheard of except for that one solo idiot from Michigan. Now look at this thread; 141 posts and still going.


Was this comment for me Vance? Not giving up at all, just looking at them as a long term investment. Trust me, they're getting intensively fed and trained over the next 20-25 years as I grow them out. Imagine a 2-3 inch trunk with less than 1 inch needles... Might just rival some imported JWP pre-bonsai material, and add the fact they'll bud back easier than a JWP and I'm going to have a hell of a tree by the time I retire. Luckily I'm the kind of laid-back personality that doesn't mind waiting a few years for something really good - heck, I'm starting a butt load of different pines this year from seed with the intent of showing them sometime in my 60's or 70's. Figure I'll learn from the bonsai community for the next 20-30 years then give back to it in my golden years.

As far as finding mugo in nurseries, I can confirm what you said above - Either all the places around me didn't bring them in this year or they sold out super quick, hardly saw any at the big box stores and nurseries.

And BTW - 141 pages not posts, you humble man you ;) Post count is up over 2800, quite the legacy you've started. Glad I can say I was there to witness it as it happened. :cool:
 

Vance Wood

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Was this comment for me Vance? Not giving up at all, just looking at them as a long term investment. Trust me, they're getting intensively fed and trained over the next 20-25 years as I grow them out. Imagine a 2-3 inch trunk with less than 1 inch needles... Might just rival some imported JWP pre-bonsai material, and add the fact they'll bud back easier than a JWP and I'm going to have a hell of a tree by the time I retire. Luckily I'm the kind of laid-back personality that doesn't mind waiting a few years for something really good - heck, I'm starting a butt load of different pines this year from seed with the intent of showing them sometime in my 60's or 70's. Figure I'll learn from the bonsai community for the next 20-30 years then give back to it in my golden years.

As far as finding mugo in nurseries, I can confirm what you said above - Either all the places around me didn't bring them in this year or they sold out super quick, hardly saw any at the big box stores and nurseries.

And BTW - 141 pages not posts, you humble man you ;) Post count is up over 2800, quite the legacy you've started. Glad I can say I was there to witness it as it happened. :cool:
No ofence intended, my comment was only to inform that in my years of experience with this tree it is unwise to prejudice anything about the tree. Of necessity I have gone to using the Mops cultivar and I am starting to figure that one out as well.
 

brewmeister83

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No ofence intended, my comment was only to inform that in my years of experience with this tree it is unwise to prejudice anything about the tree. Of necessity I have gone to using the Mops cultivar and I am starting to figure that one out as well.

No offense taken! Actually, what you said got me curious... In what way would I potentially prejudice something against this cultivar? I know dwarfs usually grow slower than their standard counterparts, but how should I expect the cultivation of this type to be different than, say, a more "standard" type such as mughus or pumilio? Does it backbud more or less/ response to hard pruning/ etc? Any info from you Vance is more than greatly appreciated when it comes to this pine - they are the majority Pinus species on my benches currently
 

Vance Wood

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Many people I have talked to that have asked about the tree have been told of their difficulties blah, blah, blah. Today there seems to be more authorities about this tree than there are examples of this tree on benches. I have not been interested enough in the cultivar to actually take the time to find on. That does not mean I wont.
As to the stubs and Jins let them all dry out for a couple of years then go after them.
 

Bolter

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This is why July Pruning is most successful.
Well after Regaining Energy.
And well before the "conversation" to Reinforce Buds.

First, thanks for the recap on what I believe Vance has been saying. The reasoning behind the timing and ques too look for really help as well.

When you talk about Bud Reinforcement, am I understanding correctly that this can be visually seen, ie swelling of buds?

Could this happen much earlier in the year if a tree were moved from low light / low fertilizer to better growing conditions?

bud.jpg
 

sorce

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First, thanks for the recap on what I believe Vance has been saying. The reasoning behind the timing and ques too look for really help as well.

When you talk about Bud Reinforcement, am I understanding correctly that this can be visually seen, ie swelling of buds?

Could this happen much earlier in the year if a tree were moved from low light / low fertilizer to better growing conditions?

View attachment 193970

Not likely...

But that bud there...in Augustish...

It will swell, maybe add 2 buds to the base.

This Reinforcement time seems to be when a healthy tree will throw a small starter flush of growth. (Which MAY be a sign that branch can be cut back to, and stay viable, provided you leave a good stub to prevent dieback)
And a stressed tree will throw some curly juvenile needles.

This is a good "post" sign...a health gauge after the season...to use for next year.

Sorce
 

Vance Wood

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I don't know where some of the terminology some of you are using is coming from, I sure don't remember saying any of it. Bud reinforcement? I don't even know what that is. As to Mugos throwing a small second flush of growth though possible, does not happen but rarely and only if you are playing with the double flush play book in new growth management. With a Mugo Pine this is a pathway that usually ends up with the decline of the tree. Mugo Pines are single flush Pines and if you want the most advantage from your new growth management you do not treat it like a JPB. Correct new growth management on a Mugo is scary to many people, especially those with previous Pine experience which will be loath to go down this road. It is difficult for them to think contrary to what they have been taught for many years about Pines. The idea that breaking off part of a candle leaving some of the new growth needles at the base does not work well with Mugos. This is a difficult concept to accept. The idea that you allow the new growth to elongate till the needles start to harden off (probably around July) then remove the new growth down to the point of its Spring beginnings pluss 1mm of the new stem at the very base is an anathema to many. The idea is to allow the formation of a lot of auxins that now need a place to go. That place is in making new buds at the tips and down the stems. The big difference is that the Mugo does not produce a second flush of growth, they produce buds for next season. These buds will pop in the Spring and the new needles will be substantially smaller and the ramification will be greater.
 

M. Frary

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I don't know where some of the terminology some of you are using is coming from, I sure don't remember saying any of it. Bud reinforcement? I don't even know what that is
I imagine we don't need to know Vance.
It sounds like hooey to me.
 

Vance Wood

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I just like to know where this stuff is coming from, more interested in the source and what they have to say. It is interesting to think that I might get a second flush of new growth but if I do not, what am I stuck with for another year?

I have a theory that I cannot yet prove but remember theories are nothing more than theories and must be approached as such. For many years now it has been my suspicion that the horticultural community is wrong about dormancy and repotting. The same kind of theories apply to bud reduction/removal issues. Much of what is taught is BS, BS not because someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes but because in the beginning someone was wrong; made a conclusion and every body there after followed his lead and methods. Eventually a mistake becomes axiomatic and accepted, though unproved or even unprovable the great error becomes theorem.

Let you guys chew on that one for a while and see if taking the time to put this on line is worth the effort sparking a discussion or being ignored as so much has been recently.
 
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