Some bonsai folks have guns

AlainK

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,394
Reaction score
9,488
Location
Orléans, France, Europe
USDA Zone
9A
You know a really good way to lose your innocence?
Being the victim of a home invasion where the guy does whatever he wants to you because you can't fight him off. It's the much more likely scenario.

Hi again,

Yes, it "can" happen, but frankly it's exceptional. thank God civilazation.

Anyway, murders are 99% from relatives here, sex betrayal, or money, though money doesn't seem to be as important here as it is in other countries. Probably why there are much fewer murders here.

Accidental shootings due to misidentification happen more in anti-gun propaganda than they do in reality. We're talking a few hundred compared to tens of thousands suicides and homicides in America. That isn't to say it's not something to be concerned about - God knows I've had knucklehead privates who needed particular attention on the subject - but I'd rather invest in firearms training to mitigate that risk than do nothing out of fear.

All right then.

My primary school friend who was a police officer and whose son shot dead his brother playing with his father's gun is one in 15 years here.

Being the victim of a home invasion

Fear as an ideology.

I remember having nightmares as a child, being killed by people. I found this reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Innocents

What we (?) are doing here, in Italy, France, the US, is a reminder of how some people, can be ignorant, fascist, nazi, stalinist people. "Christian" or "Jewish" people who have forgotten where they came from...

 

Solaris

Shohin
Messages
272
Reaction score
284
Location
SE MI
USDA Zone
5b
Hi again,

Yes, it "can" happen, but frankly it's exceptional. thank God civilazation.

To be fair, everything we're talking about is exceptional. The average citizen of a developed country will never use their firearm against another person.
Your average citizen of Detroit and Chicago won't have to, either.
But, just because I'll never need to use my first aid training or call the fire department doesn't mean I don't want them if I do need them. I don't think that everyone ought to own a firearm, but I'm not keen on shaming someone who wants one for self-defense.

Anyway, murders are 99% from relatives here, sex betrayal, or money, though money doesn't seem to be as important here as it is in other countries. Probably why there are much fewer murders here.

The vast majority of our murders are also from relatives or people you know. A wag might suggest that such can be avoided by being more selective in our social circles.
America's relatively high murder rate is due to a culture peculiar to a few of our larger cities. It's unfortunately spreading out, like a metastasizing tumor. The short version is that there may be an intelligent mammal on this planet that does well without a father, but it ain't H. s. sapiens.

All right then.

My primary school friend who was a police officer and whose son shot dead his brother playing with his father's gun is one in 15 years here.

This is an argument where we cannot rely on emotions, because at the root we're talking about lives. It's entirely too easy to make an argument based on personal experiences and anecdotes that cannot be countered without being callous - and none of them are supported by evidence. It's not too hard to rustle up stories by people who claim they wouldn't be alive if they didn't have a gun to fight off the bad guys, after all. (Some of those stories online may even be true!) That's why you'll almost never see me bring my personal experiences or anecdotes related to me in this sort of discussion, but rather references to facts and figures. Lives are simply too valuable to lose to emotional reasoning.
My takeaway from such an incident would more likely be gun safety and a good gun safe than gun avoidance, though; I've known kids who can safely handle firearms because they know they aren't toys and not to be played with.

But someone wanting to arm themselves to defend against tyrants, petty or otherwise? That's not forgetting where we came from - that's about as American as you can get.
 

jimib

Shohin
Messages
479
Reaction score
865
Location
Groveport Oh
USDA Zone
6
Here's my useless 2 cents. I've had weapons my whole life. Shotguns, rifle's, and handguns. I'm ex-military with a fair amount of MOUT training. The shotgun is a devastating weapon for sure, unless it's sawed off however it is easily grabbed entering a room. Along with that, the recoil, and the percussion of that thing going off in a closed area could startle someone who isnt a frequent shooter enough to drop it or become incredibly disoriented due to the flash and bang. Personally I don't like to leave a round under the hammer. So next to the bed I have a 6 shot 38 special ready. Grab and pull the trigger. I don't have to worry about pulling the slide back. I'm a heavy sleeper, someone will be right up on top of me before I would wake up... I want something ready.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,913
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
9mm Glock....period.
Semi-autos are difficult to operate. I understand the Glock is one of the best weapons in the world but operating the slide and loading the magazine is a phisical difficulty. A small revolver is the best option for personal defense but nothing less than a .38 is acceptable, smaller rounds just make people mad.
 

Solaris

Shohin
Messages
272
Reaction score
284
Location
SE MI
USDA Zone
5b
Semi-autos are difficult to operate. I understand the Glock is one of the best weapons in the world but operating the slide and loading the magazine is a phisical difficulty. A small revolver is the best option for personal defense but nothing less than a .38 is acceptable, smaller rounds just make people mad.
That's why you shoot 'im more than once.
Hey, the Army says it's a great idea! Who are we to question the infinite wisdom of the military?
 

AlainK

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,394
Reaction score
9,488
Location
Orléans, France, Europe
USDA Zone
9A
But someone wanting to arm themselves to defend against tyrants, petty or otherwise? That's not forgetting where we came from - that's about as American as you can get.

I don't agree with your conclusion, but I apppreciate the intelligent arguments you put forward.

Yet:

someone wanting to arm themselves to defend against tyrants, petty or otherwise?.

Well, that's what I call "civilization": problems between people must be solved by law, and if they can't, only those who are to enforce law are to bear arms; the others are criminals, all of them.

And as for "defending against tyrants", well.... What's a "tyrant"?

When I hear "someone" say that they admire a dictator that tortured and muredered hundreds of thousands of people, well I think that I have to update what my definition of "imbeciles" is.

And when a people is a majority of imbeciles, well, they'll get what they deserve : being great imbeciles again.

Just pulling your leg :D
 

AlainK

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,394
Reaction score
9,488
Location
Orléans, France, Europe
USDA Zone
9A
You know a really good way to lose your innocence?
Being the victim of a home invasion where the guy does whatever he wants to you because you can't fight him off. It's the much more likely scenario.

Any personal experience?...

No.

Just fear-based fantasy.

Fear+ gun = I'm big ( I'm a male)

What a funny tiny culture this is where people think they only exist through money and violence. And God!!!

No, no, this is not all the US of A, no no no...

 

Solaris

Shohin
Messages
272
Reaction score
284
Location
SE MI
USDA Zone
5b
I don't agree with your conclusion, but I apppreciate the intelligent arguments you put forward.

Yet:



Well, that's what I call "civilization": problems between people must be solved by law, and if they can't, only those who are to enforce law are to bear arms; the others are criminals, all of them.

And as for "defending against tyrants", well.... What's a "tyrant"?

When I hear "someone" say that they admire a dictator that tortured and muredered hundreds of thousands of people, well I think that I have to update what my definition of "imbeciles" is.

And when a people is a majority of imbeciles, well, they'll get what they deserve : being great imbeciles again.

Just pulling your leg :D

A tyrant is someone who uses violence or the threat thereof to force you to submit to their authority. Someone who breaks into your home, takes your stuff, and rapes your wife rather fits the bill. I mean, sure, he doesn't have the veneer of government authority, but that's about it when it comes to differences. Putting a metaphorical boot up their ass and a literal bullet in their vitals is something of an American tradition, admittedly one we've sorely neglected in favor of electing them in recent years.
What can I say? Our general public wants to be more like Europe.

Any personal experience?...

No.

Just fear-based fantasy.

Fear+ gun = I'm big ( I'm a male)

What a funny tiny culture this is where people think they only exist through money and violence. And God!!!

No, no, this is not all the US of A, no no no...


Once upon a time, I was properly addressed as Sergeant Schnepp of the United States Army. I have, among other things, gone searching for IEDs with my boots (didn't find any the hard way, but wore the soles off of 'em trying), made a point to always be the point man whenever we entered someplace potentially dangerous, stood in the middle of the road to stop a speeding car with nothing but a mustache and a popgun M4, encouraged angry mobs to be elsewhere with the same (seriously, it's an impressive mustache; the bald-faced kids weren't getting the job done), and taken a leisurely stroll down to the airstrip while the base was being mortared because I'd (rightly) judged based on the sound and feel of the explosions that the enemy was nowhere near dialing in a hit. The rest of the fobbits were losing their shit because, y'know, someone was chucking bombs at them. Me? I gave no fucks because I had been an artilleryman, and wasn't the mortar made that had the guts to land anywhere near my blast radius knew what it sounded like when the incoming fire became something I had to be concerned with (it's when you don't hear the mortars).
Lastly, I cussed a general out. Nobody wears headgear on my flightline. Nobody. (The funniest part is that's not the first time someone with stars on their chest got chewed out by someone with stripes on theirs on that flightline. You'd think they'd learn...)

Oh, and in my civilian life I've had assholes pull guns on me. My favorite was the old fart who thought the appropriate reaction to a fender-bender was to go get his (if you'll pardon a nontechnical term) assault rifle out the back of his pickup. Pretty sure it was an AR-15-series, but to be honest I wasn't exactly looking at the thing too closely. It's not the gun that kills you, it's the man wielding it - and for some unknown reason I wasn't keen on taking my eyes off this bastard. He changed his mind when I pointed out that there were a lot of witnesses, I was unarmed, and he'd been dim enough to let me get within arm's reach.
Less favorite is my stepfather committing suicide by firearm shortly after he attempted to kill my mother.

You might say I have a bit of experience with weapons being misused. I said personal experience shouldn't be relied upon, not that I didn't have any. Not many people who know me would call me a coward, nor think I consult my fears when I make decisions... particularly when I'm saying we ought to do just the opposite.

But I suppose it's simply easier to dismiss someone disagreeing with you as being a deluded hypocrite and tilt at strawmen instead.
 

Bonsai Nut

Nuttier than your average Nut
Messages
12,471
Reaction score
28,093
Location
Charlotte area, North Carolina
USDA Zone
8a
I have fortunately never felt close to needing to use deadly force in the civilian world. But it does happen (story from this last week)...

Armed-bystander-shoots-kills-suspected-carjacker-washington-state

I understand all the arguments in this thread and appreciate that people have kept the discussion civil. In my opinion, owning a gun doesn't automatically make a person more violent, just like not owning a gun doesn't necessarily make a person less so. The majority of gun violence in this country (80%+) involves handguns and occurs in a small number of zip codes that are usually poor and urban. Though hard to track, the "vast majority" of gun crime appears to be committed by people who illegally possess those firearms - raising the question of how effective new gun laws will be on people who don't follow the law in the first place.

Though there are definitely exceptions, the people owning 17+ firearms are typically not the ones shooting people.
 

amcoffeegirl

Masterpiece
Messages
2,772
Reaction score
4,798
Location
IOWA
USDA Zone
5b
Here's the rest of the story.
I got a gun because my 80 y/o mom broke her hip. She lives with my 64 y/o sister who has depression and has threatened suicide.
I took the gun home so no one gets hurt.
Like I said my dad was a cop and my mom has always had one in the house- even after my pops passed away.
The night several years ago when a man I don't know was trying to use his keys to get in my apartment it was very scary.
No I don't want to shoot anyone but if that exact circumstance happened and he got in I would fire.
I would never fire through the door. I live alone no one has a key.
I will carry only to the range and eventually buy my own. Getting old sucks and jumping out a 2nd story window just doesn't seem as easy as it once was. I would stand my ground and that's very legal here. In my own home I have that right.
So back then I wanted a gun for defense of my home if ever needed. Now I have a gun in my home and I just want to operate safely.
It's not even loaded right now. I will go shooting in July and see if I want to own one or not. Maybe I won't even like it. We will see.
 
Last edited:

flor1

Shohin
Messages
259
Reaction score
162
Location
N Georgia
20 gauge semi auto shotgun low recoil with number 6 shot will end any threat in a second.
 

Ingvill

Shohin
Messages
292
Reaction score
362
Location
Norway
USDA Zone
6
My best advice would be to spend a decent amount of time on gun practice, no matter what type of gun you are loaning at the moment, or end up buying later.
If not, chances are you won't be able to fire it properly, or even at all, if ever needed.
You need proper training to make sure you can handle the gun confidently, fire it and actually disable your target in a crisis situation.
And you should put some practice in every year, not just when you initially buy the gun.
Well, that's my two cents anyways :)
 

AlainK

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,394
Reaction score
9,488
Location
Orléans, France, Europe
USDA Zone
9A
"Some bonsai folks have guns "

Some do in the US of A.

Here, the vast majority of people dont own firearms, 99.99%, except game hunters who have to register and bandits who get guns illegally.

Different places, different customs. Very -very- few random attacks from opiate addicts or such. The only murder I can remember was some 15 yaers ago in my small (18,000 inhabitants) in a suburb of Orléans (250,000 inhabitants). The lover of a woman (a former military man) killed the husband of his mistress and then killed himself.

Such a, how can I say, such a pitiful, sucking, lamentable story.

Here, people don't kill each other, it's not part of our culture, or if they do they face legal action. As simple as that.

And my backdoor is never locked, it hasn't been for more than 20 years.

Get to know your neighbours, help the old lady with her grocery, say hello to the people next door, and you won't need a bazooka.
 
Top Bottom