Self-critique: Juniperus Procumbens 'Nana'

Wires_Guy_wires

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Alright @Bananaman even though I have no right to critique trees, you've asked for it. So here's how I view my trees, in my mind. I usually don't see weak points as unfixable. I see them as challenges to learn from. To get better. The same way I see comments from others. I've stayed in my liberal safe space for now. But I'm ready to face the pitbulls. Burn away on this one people!

Here's my Juniperus Procumbens, aqcuired 2 months ago. Rootless soil has been exchanged for coarse stuff, because I believe that builds feeder roots. That's a discussion for later. I'm not diving into that, since it doesn't add to building this tree. It will be repotted in spring.
The tag says it costed 5,95. That's around 6.5 dollars.

First, the entire view:
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Front and back.
Immediately poking your eyes would be lack of a bonsai pot. This is not a bonsai. We're done here, class dismissed.
But for the sake of improvement, let's act like it is.

Foliage weak points:
1. Juvenile foliage, yuck. Get rid of it, or wait for it to become adult foliage. It's a pitchfork in the eye.
2. Foliage is messy, not worked a lot, stringy instead of paddy.
3. Half of the foliage is wired, the other half is not. It's a trainwreck. My intention is to have some branches - the unwired ones- to become deadwood when they're big enough. But there's no reason not to make it look good in the mean time. It's good training and I did not do it.
4. Second pic, you see that there's one branch with foliage only at the end. Why is that? It's chopped off, everyone can see that.
5. Yeah, not just the branches are wired, sometimes the foliage too. That pisses me off.

Foliage strong points:
1. There is foliage.
2. It looks kind of healthy.
3. There's lots of it.


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Trunk weak points:
1. Fucking tape man. What's up with that?
2. Why is there wire everywhere?
3. Where does the trunk end and the roots start?
4. Around halfway up the tree, what is the trunk and what are branches?
5. S-shaped bends. Come on guy wires, you know that it looks man-made.

Trunk strong points:
1. Movement. There is movement. That's about all the points it can get on trunk strengths.

Planting angle:
Could be way more dramatic. For the time being, there's something in the works and it shows. But it doesn't move with grace, elegance or drama.


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Nebari weak points:
1. It doesn't look aged.
2. There's lots of roots, and they're crossing.
3. It looks like a freaking mess.
4. Thin and thick roots all over the place. That's way to natural looking.

Nebari strong points:
1. There seems to be a nebari in development.


20180804_172039.jpg20180804_172045.jpg20180804_172010.jpg

Overall:
The tree is way to two-dimensional. The foliage is not developed, nothing is developed. Everything seems to be 'in development'. Something you would expect for a beginner.
The wiring is wonky, messy, there's too much of it too. Too many different types and colors. No raffia, which will damage the bark. It's wired in summer, which should not be done ever. The deadwood in development is not yet deadwood and keeping the branches does not add to the tree overall. The tape is screwing up parts of the tree, even though it is meant to help heal the splits in the bark (which is working).
Old and dead foliage is not removed, making an overall messy tree. There is no distinct apex either. It's just cluttered foliage. There is no distinct padding and no play of spaces. The tree is young, and it shows that. It does not have a front, or a back. It has sides.
And no cool pot.
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And seriously? You thought nobody would notice this?


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Or this?


So overall, few out of 10 points.

Personally, I think I can make this work. Maybe get 6 out of 10 after years of work.
 

Bananaman

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In my opinion I think this tree could be made unrecognizable in the right hands right now with about two hours and wire. It will be intriguing to see how long this takes to bring out your vision because there is more than enough to transform this right now.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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I have a plan for it. I see this as checking out if it would work, and learning how to maintain it and keep it alive. I just had this plant for 2-3 months or so, and it's only my third juniper. I haven't passed the single year mark with junipers.
Purposely I kept more branches and foliage than I liked, with the idea that it can always be removed later.
I look at it every week, write down what I want to do with branches and whatnot and check a week later if that's still the case.

I'm a loudmouth and impulsive, but I am trying to take this serious. I have and take the time to think things over.

As usual, I forgot to say thanks. Thanks for the input Bananaman.
 

Bananaman

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And... thanks for starting a thread. It’s nice to talk about this tree only. It keeps things neat.
 

0soyoung

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I've seen much much worse, but I didn't take any pix, and I won't now either.
IMHO, this 'junk juniper' material is the worst (most challenging). It always kicks my ass.
I try again every year. My other stuff is getting better.
This thread might be ... helpful.

... continue, please
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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I'll keep updating this thread whenever there's something going on with this juniper.
For now, it's all about watering, keeping it alive during this tropical temperatures and lasting drought. 15 minutes of rain in 49 days. 33 degrees C.

In fall, when the bark has healed and if it's still alive by then, I intend to make pads and shorten the branches to get a more compact tree. The lowest branches have a lot of foliage that can go. And continuous pruning during the summer will help make denser foliage. That way, there's a lot of stuff that can fill whatever empty space will be created.
It is staying upright, I hope that the tree itself would like the informal upright. If that doesn't work by then, I'll have to figure something out.
 

0soyoung

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That's all fine. Look forward to following along, But, I also was also hoping for a bit more on this
In my opinion I think this tree could be made unrecognizable in the right hands right now with about two hours and wire. It will be intriguing to see how long this takes to bring out your vision because there is more than enough to transform this right now.
because I'm not doing well at making my own hands the right hands - I need another clue, IOW, and figured I might get this vicariously from your adventure.

Thanks to you for having the 'testicular fortitude' to step up with this thread.
 

Bananaman

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That's all fine. Look forward to following along, But, I also was also hoping for a bit more on this

because I'm not doing well at making my own hands the right hands - I need another clue, IOW, and figured I might get this vicariously from your adventure.

Thanks to you for having the 'testicular fortitude' to step up with this thread.
Thats part of this exercise. Maybe, just maybe some people here will see this place thru my eyes for a change. I want good things to happen around here. I want people to make great trees, I want people to eclipse my own meager trees and give me something to shoot for. I watch guys like Mach5 and am in awe at what he does with material. I think I could do it also but I don't quite have the means to procure what he does. I sit back, and watch the material as it presents itself to me when I do go to conventions and places where material is. I have a few sitting around waiting to be tranformed. I will, just courting my lady friend and you know, that takes time and patience. In fact that has to be first and formost.

When the time is ripe I will post the transformation here!!!

DSC_0003.JPGDSC_0004.JPG
 
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Bananaman

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But this.... This is the project I am most excited about. This California juniper. I am really looking forward to transforming this one into something really unusual.

soon....
036.JPG
 

0soyoung

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Nice stuff, Al. I think they belong in another thread(s).
@Wires_Guy_wires has the shitty tree that you said this about
I think this tree could be made unrecognizable in the right hands right now with about two hours and wire.
How to make lemonade from this lemon is what interests me AND is in keeping with the spirit of the thread, IMHO.
I admire Serg's trees too, but I learn nothing at all from his posts aside from what I can glean by studying his pix.
 

Bananaman

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Nice stuff, Al. I think they belong in another thread(s).
@Wires_Guy_wires has the shitty tree that you said this about

How to make lemonade from this lemon is what interests me AND is in keeping with the spirit of the thread, IMHO.
They will, just keeping with the commentary as presented. This is about Guy's tree. But you did quote me and ask questions, so there ya go.
 

Bananaman

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@Wires_Guy_wires has the shitty tree that you said this about

How to make lemonade from this lemon is what interests me AND is in keeping with the spirit of the thread, IMHO.

That is impossible on a written forum. There is so much that needs to be done. Just correct wire could improve it dramatically. I can see no structure and frankly don't even know what the line of the trunk is. This thread is not so much about making this guys tree better, this is about self examination and "Do I even have something worthy enough to work on it"

I say it is, "can I or Will I do the work" ...no.. guy wires has to do the work. He has to read all that has been posted here many times. Then proceed to do it. It's all here at this forum. Don't need Ryan Neil, Don't need Ghram Potter, or Boon, or Bjorn or any of those professional guys. All the blueprints one needs for moving this tree along have been shared over the last twelve years. It is here at your disposal and free for the taking.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Honestly, I expected more devastating comments.

My hands are itching now. But I'm not biting. I'll keep this tree 'as is' until fall. In the mean time, I can spend my time looking at how others do design. The main trunk line is to my personal liking, but I wrapped another trunk around it (see the second to last pic) that will later become deadwood. It obscured the line right now. That makes it hard to follow. The wrap-trunk will become deadwood when it's time, and it should look a little like a snake creeping up the tree or a river flowing down, the ghost of the first apex maybe, but it'll be self-explanatory by then. That's what I'll be going for. Or maybe, by the time it's fattened up, I'll just hack it off or turn it into the apex.

Since nearly all of my trees are at this stage of starting-to-become-pre-bonsai, I could use some more input from others anytime. Feel free to add opinions, views, strong points, weak points, whatever.
 

sorce

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But I'm not biting

Bite.

Transform it.

A bit more water of you're worried.

@Bananaman My watering thread is in response to these things....

The reason people are afraid to work their trees is because they don't water enough.

Totally learned that this year. The trees just can't take the work without the water.

Sorry for talking shit...
Some of it!

Sorce
 

Bananaman

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Honestly, I expected more devastating comments.
.
There you go. Bingo. It did not take long for you to understand that really, when you get down to it and boil the syrup down, no one really gives a shit about the trees at all. What everyone wants to comment and argue about is delivery and personalities. Threads take on a life of their own about the personal stuff and the trees get lost in all the bull shit.

That’s why I don’t give a lot of likes on newbie trees, don’t make comments nor say much of anything. But once and a while someone will say something really out there like yesterday about deciduous trees and old substrates versus modern substrates.
 

0soyoung

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That is impossible on a written forum. There is so much that needs to be done. Just correct wire could improve it dramatically. I can see no structure and frankly don't even know what the line of the trunk is. This thread is not so much about making this guys tree better, this is about self examination and "Do I even have something worthy enough to work on it"

I say it is, "can I or Will I do the work" ...no.. guy wires has to do the work. He has to read all that has been posted here many times. Then proceed to do it. It's all here at this forum. Don't need Ryan Neil, Don't need Ghram Potter, or Boon, or Bjorn or any of those professional guys. All the blueprints one needs for moving this tree along have been shared over the last twelve years. It is here at your disposal and free for the taking.
Okay.
@Wires_Guy_wires doesn't have the right hands, so it cannot be done in a couple of hours. We can imagine that it might be, but it won't be. Unlike Sergio, I have no intrinsic artistic talent. I only have my tastes to know what I like when I see it and what I don't. I barely have a clue about just what makes the difference. With material like this, I continue to flail and it is coming down to apparently continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results, but I'm 'doing the work'. I'm sure that Guy will continue to 'do the work'. The question is whether any of us will ever have the right hands, Will we ever have what it takes to get it there? For me (and I think Guy) it is an artistic, not technical (how trees work), challenge. IMHO,

If I may barrow from Kurt Vonnegut, so it goes.
 

Bananaman

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Okay.
@Wires_Guy_wires doesn't have the right hands, so it cannot be done in a couple of hours. We can imagine that it might be, but it won't be. Unlike Sergio, I have no intrinsic artistic talent. I only have my tastes to know what I like when I see it and what I don't. I barely have a clue about just what makes the difference. With material like this, I continue to flail and it is coming down to apparently continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results, but I'm 'doing the work'. I'm sure that Guy will continue to 'do the work'. The question is whether any of us will ever have the right hands, Will we ever have what it takes to get it there? For me (and I think Guy) it is an artistic, not technical (how trees work), challenge. IMHO,

If I may barrow from Kurt Vonnegut, so it goes.
You and I think a lot alike and exactly why many on here are absolutely wrong about talent being able to be “learned”
 
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