2010 BonsaiNut Trident Project

rockm · Jan 11, 2010

While these techniques can work very well, it should be noted that growing a trident maple in Pittsburgh Zone 5/6 is a lot different than growing in Zone 8 or 9 (as Doug does--not sure where Gary is working--although I assume it's the Pacific Northwest).

If you provide adequate protection (tridents can have significant issues in Zones lower than 6 or so) from winter conditions, you will only get at best five months of development time. Zones 8/9 have significantly more active growing time.

The results of fusing trunks can be spectacular, as doug's work shows. The process can also be a pain in the rear end and yield middling results...

garywood · Jan 11, 2010

Yes Patrick, you are correct sir

When you use seedlings vs cuttings make sure there aren't any existing roots on top of the tile. If you have any roots above, once the constricting begins the existing roots will take off and form only a scattered nebari. You want volume not 3 or 4 roots.
Wood

garywood · Jan 11, 2010

Hi Mark, I'm assuming we're talking about Doug Wilson. The methods\techniques that I'm using are not the same. The only fusing with these are at the base for a large nebari. I agree with you on the wire frame method. Way too labor intensive. Wood

rockm · Jan 11, 2010

Gary, I was talking about Doug Wilson, but also kind of included your technique also. Tridents slow down in colder environments--PWK apparently is in Pittsburgh, PA--Zone 5-6. Development timelines using any of these techniques would be slower than Zones 8-9.

Tridents also apparently have a very hard time in colder Northern US winters. I've heard more than a few folks in the Northern States who have given up on them for bonsai after their Tridents' roots turn to mush in hard winters.

Amur Maple, which is hardy to Zone 2-3, can be kind of a stand in for trident in colder places. I have been growing both for years. Unfortunately, Amur is NOT trident

It does grow very fast though.

garywood · Jan 11, 2010

Mark, you are spot on. As for the Amur, I've had very good results with these same methods. With judicious pruning on Amur the results can be great. The big difference between trident and amur, as far as training, is the size of the pruning cuts. To me, Amur doesn't calus as well. Wood

rockm · Jan 11, 2010

Gary,

Don't get me wrong. Your technique works very well. Winter is a pain though

Amur's problem is that it grows so quickly. It's hard to build up secondary and tertiary branching, as new buds tend to grow like rockets. New shoots also tend to be very angular.

I have no trouble, however, leaving Amur out exposed to winter weather. It is bulletproof in Zone 7 winter.

Smoke · Jan 11, 2010

How about leaf reduction on amur? The ones I have seen have been pretty large, not large as in Liquid amber, but larger when compared to trident.

al

Chris Johnston · Jan 11, 2010

Smoke said:
I second that.

I am still trying to find a good web site with pictures of juniper whips wired for the yamadori style trees. Even in a Jim Gremel workshop he never bends one for "You." I guess part of the unsaid process is that you get the verbal instruction and "I" need to learn and do my own thing. I just want to see how he does it.

I'm gonna corner him at Kazari and bring some whips and when he wins again and while he is admireing his check I will thrust the whips in his hands. Maybe in the euphoria he will bend some for me. Woohoo.

Al, one of the best diagrams I have seen on that is at Bonsai Study Group!

http://bonsaistudygroup.com/shohin-discussion/shohin-juniper-(variety-unknown)/msg4346/#new

Smoke · Jan 11, 2010

Chris Johnston said:
Al, one of the best diagrams I have seen on that is at Bonsai Study Group!

http://bonsaistudygroup.com/shohin-discussion/shohin-juniper-(variety-unknown)/msg4346/#new

Saw that, but I want to see it at time of wiring the whip. I have seen many completed. In fact I have one. I just want to know more about what does what. Are they bent hard at the soil line? Are they bent around a stick for coils? I mean there has to be a way to see one at the time of first wire...or not?

Al

I will be unwiring mine I did last year soon. Then I may have something to share. At least I will know if the track is still able to run a train or if I derailed somewhere.

garywood · Jan 11, 2010

Al and Chris, can this site do video? I'll be heading west next week and I'll do a video on the whips.

Al, leaf reduction on Amur is quite dramatic but just like most all d-trees a lot has to do with quantity of shoots. The bigger problem with Amur is petiole length in proportion to leaf area and the initial bud internode length. Trident is almost automatic with that short initial bud internode. Just my thoughts.
Wood

rockm · Jan 12, 2010

Gary is right. Amur are capable of dramatic leaf reduction--leaves can get almost as small as a trident's. INternode length, however, can be an issue, but you can eventually force the plant to push shorter ones--can take a few years of aggressive pinching back.

pwk5017 · Jan 12, 2010

Gary, have you thought of experimenting more with your tile process? I think it was Peter Adams(correct me if im wrong, but the author of japanese maples) explained a method of using upside down china plates. Same idea as the tiles, the plant grows through a hole, the hole constricts the plant and forces it to layer above the hole, but the china plate is convex, and apparently creates a better base. Has anyone used this china plate method or something similar to it? Im interested in the results compared to a flat tile. Combining Gary's multiple cuttings on one plate could be a nifty experiment. Whoever said Pittsburgh is zone 5-6, we are actually 6-7. It doesn't matter much, but im hoping global warming continues its beneficial effects on my vegetative growth, and eventually gets me to a 7-8 : )

Patrick

mcpesq817 · Jan 12, 2010

pwk5017 said:
I think it was Peter Adams(correct me if im wrong, but the author of japanese maples) explained a method of using upside down china plates. Same idea as the tiles, the plant grows through a hole, the hole constricts the plant and forces it to layer above the hole, but the china plate is convex, and apparently creates a better base.

I think you're right. I remember that technique from Peter Adams' book on maples.

garywood · Jan 12, 2010

Hi Patrick, I have seen trees grown on plates or some such in the ground that not had, any or much followup rootwork. I don't think this gives as good of a nebari as regular rootwork in the begining. The flat tiles We use are small 4" and they only form the initial nebari, they are temporary, 2-3 years. Rootwork follows. Just as you get ramification in branch developement you also need ramification in root developement. Taper is the name of the game, trunk, branches and roots. I'm not saying there aren't any shortcuts but shortcuts need to be evaluated in context to what you want to achieve. Keep thinking and keep trying new things. It sounds like you will have plenty to work with. Experience is a good teacher. Have Fun.
Wood

bretts · Jan 13, 2010

Great stuff Gary. It is great to see a nursery put good techniques into practice and be able to stock great quality material.
I have many Trident seedlings that have grown wild in the yard and I tried a similar technique with old CD's (All I could find at the time) I got mixed results but much better than I expected with a few decent root bases. I will be sure to keep experimenting.
As I was starting a fresh with my growing area I removed alot of saplings from the ground that did not have any previous root work done. I put these in Pots with a tourniquet on the trunk to ground layer them. Have you had any experience with this?

Also I am currently growing a Amur Maple and have heard good and bad things about them. One recent comment was that they are not long lived are there any opinions on this?

rockm · Jan 13, 2010

Long lived amurs? Depends on what you mean by "long."

I've got a forest planting of Amur that I began as two year old seedlings 13 years ago. They're still growing like weeds. I also have a forest planting of older trees--which looked to be about 20 years old when I bought them. I've had them 10 years....

garywood · Jan 13, 2010

Hi Brett, I haven't tried it on trident but have on junipers. The physiology involved would be the same with tourniquet or hole in tile so it should work. what I like about the tiles is the roots are forced to spread out instead of growing down. When you do the initial rootwork it is not as traumatic to the fragile roots. Whichever method you use make sure they are planted deep to avoid dessication.
Amurs may not be as long lived as Bristlecone or Juniper but they are longer lived than Elms. In perspective, it will out last you

Wood

bretts · Jan 14, 2010

Thanks Guys that's interesting. There are some bonsai enthusiasts growing acacias as bonsai down here and there has been some discussion on their short life which can be about 15 years in the wild. There are specimens getting close to 30 years old as bonsai.
I had started to consider that in theory Bonsai live forever. Quote from someone I remember? This relates to the tree never getting to big for itself!

It is interesting you state elm as shorter lived. I wonder if there is accounts that could prove without reasonable doubt that Bonsai die from old age?
Maybe a mod could split this here if you want to discuss it further so It does not ruin your thread

Thanks Again.

garywood · Oct 31, 2010

Repotting and digging season is here again so I thought I would do a quick update. These may or may not be the same trees posted earlier but are representative of the progression.
Wood

garywood · Oct 31, 2010

A few more
Wood

2010 BonsaiNut Trident Project

Spuds Moyogi

Chumono

Chumono

Spuds Moyogi

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Spuds Moyogi

Ignore-Amus

Omono

Ignore-Amus

Chumono

Spuds Moyogi

Shohin

Omono

Chumono

Shohin

Spuds Moyogi

Chumono

Shohin

Chumono

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Chumono

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