New term for American bonsai

Bananaman

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A few more
 

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Bananaman

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Bananaman

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cockroach

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The way westerners pronounce Bonsai, with a z pronunciation on the s is already different from the Japanese way. Maybe that's enough.?

Although some folks tend pronounce it Bone-zigh. Grates me ever so slightly. Don't know why.
 

Saddler

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I can see why you would think non professionals can’t innovate. It really feels like the majority of your trees look like they were cloned in a replicator five years ago.

Speaking of non professional not innovating, who was that Japanese guy that made that big elm broom and a couple pancake nebari? He didn’t have another job before he started selling his trees, did he?
 

Bananaman

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I can see why you would think non professionals can’t innovate. It really feels like the majority of your trees look like they were cloned in a replicator five years ago.

Speaking of non professional not innovating, who was that Japanese guy that made that big elm broom and a couple pancake nebari? He didn’t have another job before he started selling his trees, did he?
You are helping me prove my point....and you don't even know it
 

Saddler

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You are helping me prove my point....and you don't even know it
Is it the part about your trees or Ibihara.

Your trees tell me why you think there is a point to be made on this. Ibihara's trees tell me you don’t need to be a professional to innovate. So if I am making your point, please be so kind to spell it out for someone as dense as me please.
 

rockm

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In Japan Bonsai was started through trading for medicine and is about family.

In the USA Bonsai was started for the ego and is about ownership and money..

Hai Much different.
Um, no. Both statements are pretty much untrue. Bonsai is Japan was created AND MAINTAINED BY THE ELITE. That is were it grew from--the Imperial Palace for a time outlawed ownership of bonsai except by the royal class. As for ownership and money--Japan is far far FAR ahead of egotism and $$ when it comes to bonsai. There is no on in the U.S. paying $2 mill for a tree or $500,000 for a pot...Yes, there is ego and $ in bonsai in the U.S., but there's also both in just about any hobby--take a look at custom automobiles...ect. Bonsai $ is nowhere near car $ here.

As for "American Bonsai," I always haul out this photo of Ron Lang's "Utah Ledge" composition. He created it a long time ago. Not seen many other compositions that come close to its specificity to a distinct American desert landscape.
http://www.langbonsai.com/experimental.htm
langcliff.jpg
 

Cosmos

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How much did the Japanese really change the name? It went from pen-zai to bon-sai. Almost the same.

How much did the Japanese change the "rules" on how to build a tree compared to the Chinese? I have this book, and I swear, over the maybe 5-6 pages of technical and aesthetic "rules", essentially ALL OF THEM are the same as what John Naka and co. codified decades ago. Down to the position of trees in a 7-tree forest, stuff like that. And wiring, there’s a two-page helper on how to wire ("the use of wire is unique to bonsai"...no).

Now, the Japanese did inject different aesthetic and commercial considerations to the art/craft that you won’t find in the different schools of penjing? Yes. That’s different for sure. The Japanese use some species that you cannot find in China; using local species worldwide will obviously bring aesthetic shifts, no matter how subtle. But the goal remains to create a bit of beauty to offer an ugly, often depressing world by using a tree in a pot.

Just my two cents.
 

Bananaman

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Wow. Someone should post on the Announcements thread when you guys are done with your pissing contest. Then the rest of us can come back when there's less risk of getting wet in the overspray.
If you only have bitching to contribute, then save your self some grief and just ignore this thread
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Back to the original post

Bonsai is good enough for me. No need to add any qualifiers.

This debate is almost as old as the formation of the first bonsai clubs in the USA. I remember this topic being brought up in articles from the late 1960's and early 1970's. Dan Robbins used to argue about ''American Bonsai'' too, back in the day. I will be interested in the upcoming ABS article.

My understanding is the ''Japanese Bonsai'' approach was to create an image that evokes an emotional response, usually as one would have to a scene from nature. Key is the emotional response is the goal. It is not literal, ''miniature railroading'' creating scale models. In Japan, the Japanese culture has a number of cultural references that one would not experience if you were not raised, or extremely familiar with Japanese culture. Myself being USA born and raised do not have the emotional reaction to Ume that a Japanese citizen might have. And similarly I react to a Ponderosa pine or an American Larch differently than someone from Japan. Different cultural context.

But the goal of Bonsai is to create an image with emotional impact. Which is exactly the type of image @Mark created with his excellent display.

But the USA is such a large and varied country that I would likely have a different set of cultural references than someone from the east coast or west coast. And certainly different than someone from the arid mountain states.

So while my comments seems to endorse a new name, I really am against a new name. Bonsai is good enough.

This does bring up the issue of who should judge major North American shows? But the results this September from the National Show seem to demonstrate that at least so far, the Japanese professionals chosen by Bill Valvanis are quite competent at judging bonsai produced in America. Japan is a country with diverse landscapes, from the tropical island of Okinawa to the very cold, almost Wyoming like mountains of the island of Hokkaido. I am certain that Japanese bonsai judges are not strangers to the idea that artists will have different cultural references in their bonsai.

As to Marcel Duchamp's "Fountain" , I thought the whole point was that it is art if the artist says it is art. Full stop.
 

Bananaman

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Back to the original post

Bonsai is good enough for me. No need to add any qualifiers.

This debate is almost as old as the formation of the first bonsai clubs in the USA. I remember this topic being brought up in articles from the late 1960's and early 1970's. Dan Robbins used to argue about ''American Bonsai'' too, back in the day. I will be interested in the upcoming ABS article.

My understanding is the ''Japanese Bonsai'' approach was to create an image that evokes an emotional response, usually as one would have to a scene from nature. Key is the emotional response is the goal. It is not literal, ''miniature railroading'' creating scale models. In Japan, the Japanese culture has a number of cultural references that one would not experience if you were not raised, or extremely familiar with Japanese culture. Myself being USA born and raised do not have the emotional reaction to Ume that a Japanese citizen might have. And similarly I react to a Ponderosa pine or an American Larch differently than someone from Japan. Different cultural context.

But the goal of Bonsai is to create an image with emotional impact. Which is exactly the type of image @Mark created with his excellent display.

But the USA is such a large and varied country that I would likely have a different set of cultural references than someone from the east coast or west coast. And certainly different than someone from the arid mountain states.

So while my comments seems to endorse a new name, I really am against a new name. Bonsai is good enough.

This does bring up the issue of who should judge major North American shows? But the results this September from the National Show seem to demonstrate that at least so far, the Japanese professionals chosen by Bill Valvanis are quite competent at judging bonsai produced in America. Japan is a country with diverse landscapes, from the tropical island of Okinawa to the very cold, almost Wyoming like mountains of the island of Hokkaido. I am certain that Japanese bonsai judges are not strangers to the idea that artists will have different cultural references in their bonsai.

As to Marcel Duchamp's "Fountain" , I thought the whole point was that it is art if the artist says it is art. Full stop.


....you mean "Dan Robinson"

I like your thoughts here but I think trying to zero in on geographical regions is just window dressing. The art created should elicit "emotional response" no matter what part of the country a viewer is from. Think of walking thru an art gallery, You don't have to be from a city in Japan to appreciate a wonderful painting of Mount Fuji. It either elicits emotion or it doesn't, being from the country its in matters little....
 

Bananaman

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Chew on this.....

Is it easier to achieve a display of your own backyard, than maybe a display of a place you have never been before. I mean isn't that just copying??

Or do I make my points just a little more clear. It really doesn't matter.
 
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