Bendy Hawthorn

Cattwooduk · Oct 26, 2018

I dug this during the Spring earlier this year because I thought it had an interesting trunk.
I started wide around the base and worked my way in, only to find that there were hardly any roots near the base at all so I didn't think it was going to survive. Because I just left it to see if it would recover I haven't really given it much thought so I'm not entirely sure where to go with it yet.
I'm thinking my options are:
Create 2 canopies/apex where the two groups of new growth have sprouted from.
Cut off the rest of the trunk after the first bend and use the growth there for the next stage of development.

If I go for second option then I guess I either have to develop much better roots on the right hand side of the base, or go for a slanting style tree.
Because of how unlikely I thought it was to survive with so few roots, I'll be leaving it at least until 2020 before I lift it to do any root work. Probably won't do anything until Autumn next year besides maybe some wiring this weekend for some ideas.
My main issue is the severe lack of taper all the way along, which is a shame with the interesting movement.

Any thoughts?

coachspinks · Oct 26, 2018

Google "raft style bonsai" and click on images
You will see some interesting options. Yours reminds me of some of them.

Cattwooduk · Oct 26, 2018

Yeah I have seen lots of rafts before but hadn't considered it as a possibility for some reason. Thanks!

TN_Jim · Oct 26, 2018

It’s growing out over the center of a deep crux slightly acute bend along a healthy moving stream...while surrounded by taller trees, it leaves the competition for light finding it over the water....the elbow is strong and outward, but the extending arm is an often beaten upon open hand reaching for the other bank

if loving this tree is wrong, I don’t wanna be...

Mike Hennigan · Oct 26, 2018

I think the main obstacle to the two canopies idea is that after that first nice bend in the trunk, it it a long trunk with no taper at all. It would make an interesting tree for the sake of being interesting but not a very good tree in my opinion. I think you’re better off cutting it off and making the best tree the material can offer.

sorce · Oct 27, 2018

Let the left shit grow to see if you can get that base segment any fatter....so there is taper at that bend....so you can ise it better....

Maybe one of those branches between can eventually be a new leader, where the second segment will be not tooooo long.

Let it. Fuck 2020. Let it!
Shitty by 2025?
Or dope as balls by 2040?

S

Mike Hennigan · Oct 27, 2018

The other option that comes to mind is to let it get real health then cut that second section of trunk back halfway or so and hope you get budding in that area. That way you can keep that funky movement but compact the tree a bit.

TN_Jim · Oct 27, 2018

If you’re not going for a raft or hard slant, likely going to need to get light underneath for buds there.

M. Frary · Oct 27, 2018

Not sure I would have collected this. If I did I would cut it back to at least the very lowest lead. Get rid of that elbow.

Hack Yeah! · Oct 27, 2018

Reminds me of this raft/ bridge

my nellie · Oct 27, 2018

Raft +1 for me, too @Cattwooduk
It reminds me a maple raft which I've seen on Ian Young's webpage

Belongs to Stephen Dodds, as I have just found out

Cattwooduk · Nov 5, 2018

I think I'm going to try raft first - coming spring I will scrape off some bark from the underside of the right hand bit and make a long wooden box for it.
Is there any logic to removing half the shoots from the right hand side in the hope it might pop some more buds elsewhere, and also help divert energy to the left side to thicken that section... albeit hardly any extra I would imagine?

If after a while it becomes evident that raft isn't working I can always cut away the left hand side and make a slant, and then be left with a raft as well!

Zach Smith · Nov 5, 2018

Good luck with your project. Just FYI for future hawthorn collecting, they don't need any fine roots near the base of the trunk to survive. Success rates are 90%. You can cut any lateral roots back really hard and the tree won't care.

GroveBonsai · Nov 5, 2018

I actually think this tree is really cool. I normally don’t like raft styles but the potential in this one really peaked my interest. Especially cause i like Hawthorn. I’ve never had one but i love the look of them. Especially in winter. Good luck

Cattwooduk · Nov 6, 2018

Yeah I've wanted a Hawthorn for a while, especially after following Brian Van Fleet's amazing tree progression. There is an absolute mass of them growing in the woods behind my grandparents which I had marked a few last winter, but coming back in Spring and looking closer there weren't as many suitable for collecting as I'd thought. There is a potentially interesting Yew down there as well which I might go for - I assume spring is best for yew and I should avoid collecting now we're in autumn?

Thanks for that little virt @EddyFern , it's kind of what I had in mind if I go raft but hadn't sketched anything out yet. Knowing it may have decent potential is both nice to know and a bit daunting - I'm still at a stage where making mistakes and bad choices comes naturally so inflicting poor decisions on bad material is preferable to wrecking good stuff.... still live and learn, and it was free!

When should I initially wire some of these fresh bolts that have popped up at the top... can I do it now just before the leaves drop as I imagine it will lignify going into winter? Or is late winter into Spring the best time to do it?

peterbone · Nov 6, 2018

Zach Smith said:
Good luck with your project. Just FYI for future hawthorn collecting, they don't need any fine roots near the base of the trunk to survive. Success rates are 90%. You can cut any lateral roots back really hard and the tree won't care.

That's not at all what I've read and what I've experienced myself. I've collected a few hawthorns with pretty good roots and none have survived. I have a pretty good success rate with other species. This blog post shows how cautious you have to be with Hawthorns after root reduction.
https://www.kaizenbonsai.com/blog/2018/03/potting-yamadori-hawthorn-for-bonsai/

Perhaps the Hawthorns you have in the US respond better to root reduction?

Zach Smith · Nov 6, 2018

peterbone said:
That's not at all what I've read and what I've experienced myself. I've collected a few hawthorns with pretty good roots and none have survived. I have a pretty good success rate with other species. This blog post shows how cautious you have to be with Hawthorns after root reduction.
https://www.kaizenbonsai.com/blog/2018/03/potting-yamadori-hawthorn-for-bonsai/

Perhaps the Hawthorns you have in the US respond better to root reduction?

It would have to be geographical differences. I've been collecting Hawthorns for 30 years. Rarely do I get fibrous roots, and I prune them very hard. Go to my website for blogs on Hawthorns to see.

Mike Hennigan · Nov 6, 2018

Zach Smith said:
Good luck with your project. Just FYI for future hawthorn collecting, they don't need any fine roots near the base of the trunk to survive. Success rates are 90%. You can cut any lateral roots back really hard and the tree won't care.

My experience with collecting hawthorn has been pretty similar to Zach’s. Maybe it’s just the heavy clay soil around here that produces trees with basically no feeder roots near the trunk, but all the trees I’ve collected were like that. I cut all the thicker roots back very hard to where they have almost no roots and basically no feeder roots because otherwise I would have to plant them in a massive container.

I’ve found fantastic success with this by doing two important things.

1. I collect them early. I’ve found that if I collect hawthorn when the buds are fully swelled and about to break that my success rate is lower. Collect them a few weeks earlier than you think you should. My most successful year so far was late March here in upstate NY and there was still some snow on the ground.

2. I “Sweat” the trees after collection and potting. Tony Tickle has written about this on his blog as a “revolutionary” hawthorn collecting technique, especially when there a very little good roots. Basically I stick the the whole tree and pot inside a black garbage bag and put it into full sun. The heat and humidity causes dormant buds to pop all over the trunk and insane root growth! Often times I’ll get aerial roots growing out of the trunk ABOVE the soil. I SWEAR by this technique, it gives the tree a huge boost and has saved a number of hawthorn that would probably have not survived collection otherwise. If there’s anything close to a miracle technique in bonsai, this is it. I’ve used this same technique to take massive Elm cuttings, like branches 3 inches wide.

Here’s a link to a little blurb Tony Tickle wrote about it.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/yamadori.co.uk/2016/01/04/improving-the-success-rate-of-yamadori/amp/

peterbone · Nov 6, 2018

Mike Hennigan said:
My experience with collecting hawthorn has been pretty similar to Zach’s. Maybe it’s just the heavy clay soil around here that produces trees with basically no feeder roots near the trunk, but all the trees I’ve collected were like that. I cut all the thicker roots back very hard to where they have almost no roots and basically no feeder roots because otherwise I would have to plant them in a massive container.

I’ve found fantastic success with this by doing two important things.

1. I collect them early. I’ve found that if I collect hawthorn when the buds are fully swelled and about to break that my success rate is lower. Collect them a few weeks earlier than you think you should. My most successful year so far was late March here in upstate NY and there was still some snow on the ground.

2. I “Sweat” the trees after collection and potting. Tony Tickle has written about this on his blog as a “revolutionary” hawthorn collecting technique, especially when there a very little good roots. Basically I stick the the whole tree and pot inside a black garbage bag and put it into full sun. The heat and humidity causes dormant buds to pop all over the trunk and insane root growth! Often times I’ll get aerial roots growing out of the trunk ABOVE the soil. I SWEAR by this technique, it gives the tree a huge boost and has saved a number of hawthorn that would probably have not survived collection otherwise. If there’s anything close to a miracle technique in bonsai, this is it. I’ve used this same technique to take massive Elm cuttings, like branches 3 inches wide.

Here’s a link to a little blurb Tony Tickle wrote about it.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/yamadori.co.uk/2016/01/04/improving-the-success-rate-of-yamadori/amp/

Yes, I've used the sweating technique several times with no success. I also use Rhizotonic, etc as recommended by Harry Harrington. I wonder what exact species you're collecting in the US though? I'm referring to Crataegus monogyna. I've found Elm to be extremely easy compared to Hawthorn.

Cattwooduk · Nov 6, 2018

There seems to be quite a few that have grown similar to this one around here. I'm currently in the woods with the dog looking for more to grab next spring.
Not necessarily this one but thought it's interesting !

Bendy Hawthorn

Shohin

Chumono

Shohin

Omono

Chumono

Nonsense Rascal

Chumono

Omono

Bonsai Godzilla

Omono

Masterpiece

Shohin

Omono

Mame

Attachments

Shohin

Mame

Omono

Chumono

Mame

Shohin

Similar threads