Started growing stuff in the ground today

leatherback

The Treedeemer
Messages
13,937
Reaction score
26,880
Location
Northern Germany
USDA Zone
7
I should also mention that is 6 months or so of growth.
I agree. I understand you mean to say that in the tropics there is no need for ground growing. Growth is so fast there that you cannot control it in the ground. So better to grow in containers there, if you want to grow top level stock. Well added, thank you.
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,388
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
Actually @leatherback,

what I was trying to show you is how the tests go.

[1] Tests showed that this tree has to be ground grown for trunk
size,

[2] We had to test a branch extension and found that the side branch
thickened but not the trunk.
See image below.

[3] Additionally the large root seen in the previous image
was not a problem, just tip the tree and remove a trunk.
Continue on to a larger tree.

Thus far down here only one plant - Ficus p - can truly
increase trunk size in a Bonsai pot, most either need ground
/ ttrough growing or a 1/3 of a US 55 gallon barrel.
e,g Chinese Southern Elm or Wrightia religiosa.

Still testing soft wooded forms of J.B.pine in 12 x 5 inch
clay pots [ 30 x 12 cm ]

Good Day
Anthony

Fustic - side extension branch

fustic12.jpg
 

Bananaman

Chumono
Messages
668
Reaction score
1,569
Thanx for the input everybody. I love doing things wrong the first time. Reminds me how clueless I am :)
Interesting answer coming to a discussion forum looking for the right way to do it.

humans...they never cease to amaze me.
 

Fonz

Chumono
Messages
745
Reaction score
1,715
Location
Pulderbos, Belgium
USDA Zone
8b
Interesting answer coming to a discussion forum looking for the right way to do it.

humans...they never cease to amaze me.
The thing about forums is that you get the most correct information when you do something wrong. If I had asked "how do I ground grow trees" I would have gotten a ton of information that was useful in one or the other way but I'd probably would have made some critical mistakes anyway. Now experienced people like yourself just point out the main things that could have been executed better. Call it the lazy way of trial and error...

Not trying to be a pain in the ass but I bever asked about the right way to do this. I just posted what I'd done. and I appreciate all the critics/comments.
 

Bananaman

Chumono
Messages
668
Reaction score
1,569
The thing about forums is that you get the most correct information when you do something wrong. If I had asked "how do I ground grow trees" I would have gotten a ton of information that was useful in one or the other way but I'd probably would have made some critical mistakes anyway. Now experienced people like yourself just point out the main things that could have been executed better. Call it the lazy way of trial and error...

Not trying to be a pain in the ass but I bever asked about the right way to do this. I just posted what I'd done. and I appreciate all the critics/comments.
Thanks...thats a cool way to look at it. Kind of like all the hookers in Belgium, and working out the beginner mistakes before you get married. I like it.
 

Fonz

Chumono
Messages
745
Reaction score
1,715
Location
Pulderbos, Belgium
USDA Zone
8b
Thanks...thats a cool way to look at it. Kind of like all the hookers in Belgium, and working out the beginner mistakes before you get married. I like it.
Got me there, just don't tell my fiancée :cool:
 

Sifu

Yamadori
Messages
58
Reaction score
38
What kind of soil did you use? It looks like a garden soil or did you add some humus or other organic/non-organic mixtures? I know that soil is not that important for ground growing trees, but anyway, usually i make a mixture of 40% -50% garden soil + 50% - 60% humus or/and home made compost, maybe i add some very cheap potting soil mixture ...
May i ask what kind of soil mixture do you guys use for training your bonsai in the ground?
 

Paulpash

Masterpiece
Messages
2,008
Reaction score
6,019
Location
UK. Yorkshire
Your going to wish you had planted these at least two or three feet apart. I have dug lots of trees and growing these to suitable bonsai size will be a big tangled mess and no room to work digging them up. Roots will grow into each other and be a tangled mess below the ground also.

Good luck with your new trees. These tridents are grown three feet apart each way and even these were a pain in the ass to dig out without first pruning them back a lot to even get in there to dig. Field growing requires much growing and pruning and cutting back constantly in an effort to keep them tidy, defeats the purpose of field growing. See how large those cut end of those canes are, those branches were about seven feet long and intertwined with the row next to it three feet or more away.

Just something to think about.


oh....and the other thing....if this is not what you intend to do by growing in the ground and saying something like, ..."well I don't intend to let my stuff get that big"...

Just grow it in a large container. You can grow trunks to 3 inches in a five gallon nursery container.

View attachment 215739

I agree with them being too close. Yes, for the ease of digging but also for another reason. Field maples are absolute beasts when you ground grow them. They are more vigorous than even tridents (at least in the UK) and can put on an amazing amount of thickening in just one growing season. When growing them so close how are you going to get close enough to the base of each tree to

1. Identify & mitigate reverse taper.
2. Assess best lines for chopping

Field Maple will throw multiple shoots from one node often 3ft in length in a single season. You really need to pay attention to reduce these down to two or you have no option but to chop it out which can mess up a whole trunk section you've been building for a few seasons. If I was 25 again and had the space I'd build a raised bed for growing out. Crawling around on your hands and knees to find the best line for a chop gets a bit of a chore.

I tend to ground grow the vast majority of my trees. Just so you know I'm not blowing hot air here's a field maple in a 15 inch dorda pot I grew from a pinkie sized seedling so I've walked this path already. It's in it's 3rd year of development but still a long way to go....
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20181104_133213.jpg
    IMG_20181104_133213.jpg
    402.9 KB · Views: 68
  • IMG_20181104_133246.jpg
    IMG_20181104_133246.jpg
    510.4 KB · Views: 67
  • IMG_20181104_133239.jpg
    IMG_20181104_133239.jpg
    485.9 KB · Views: 57
Last edited:

Fonz

Chumono
Messages
745
Reaction score
1,715
Location
Pulderbos, Belgium
USDA Zone
8b
I tend to ground grow the vast majority of my trees. Just so you know I'm not blowing hot air here's a field maple in a 15 inch dorda pot I grew from a pinkie sized seedling so I've walked this path already. It's in it's 3rd year of development but still a long way to go....
Nice! How long did you keep it in the ground?

I'll make sure to dig my newly planted trees up in a year or 2, work the roots and plant them back further from eachother.
 
Messages
1,654
Reaction score
2,535
Location
Belgium
I did start ground growing some years ago like this (fagus, acer campestre, carpinus betulus, tilia cordata). I ground layered every tree after 2 years. Had 50% succes (full 360 degree roots) and tossed the rest. Transplanted in grow boxes and pond baskets with some losses (mostly the pond baskets) . Cut back to lower growth, some with poor response. From the 50+ plants i end with 0 fagus, 2 acer campestre, 4 tilia cordata, 5 carpinus (more or less, havent counted once) after +- 9 years. Now i have a compact root system and good flare on most of the pre-bonsai. I plan on putting some in the ground again to go for big trees, others i will be refined in grow boxes coming years. It was a rewarding choice to start this way and i learned what slows or speeds development, and ihave close to perfect roots (you don't find them in the shop like this). It also makes me humble when i see nice trees like the example of @Paulpash and i learn to appreciate high quality starting material that are priced high in bonsai shops. You pay for the time, effort and the trees that weren't good enough down the road. Looking forward to see the evolution.
 

Bananaman

Chumono
Messages
668
Reaction score
1,569
Nice! How long did you keep it in the ground?

I'll make sure to dig my newly planted trees up in a year or 2, work the roots and plant them back further from eachother.
If you dig them up every few years to work the roots you will defeat the whole purpose of putting them in the ground . You could accomplish the same thing in pots. Trees growing in the ground just start to get their steam at about year three and then need three to five undisturbed or it all starts over wasting precious years.
 

Fonz

Chumono
Messages
745
Reaction score
1,715
Location
Pulderbos, Belgium
USDA Zone
8b
If you dig them up every few years to work the roots you will defeat the whole purpose of putting them in the ground . You could accomplish the same thing in pots. Trees growing in the ground just start to get their steam at about year three and then need three to five undisturbed or it all starts over wasting precious years.
Gotcha! No digging up every few years. Maybe once to plant them further apart. Or just eleminate every other tree :)
 

Johnathan

Omono
Messages
1,009
Reaction score
1,073
Location
Oklahoma City, OK
If you dig them up every few years to work the roots you will defeat the whole purpose of putting them in the ground . You could accomplish the same thing in pots. Trees growing in the ground just start to get their steam at about year three and then need three to five undisturbed or it all starts over wasting precious years.

I may have missed it somewhere... but how do you feel about the colander/ pond basket growing for a couple of years and then into the ground?
 

Bananaman

Chumono
Messages
668
Reaction score
1,569
I have a couple friends who are ground growers, so I am not the voice of professionalism on this. I have dug quite a few though. I think anything done in preparation for the introduction to the ground would help, but I do know for a fact that undisturbed growth is best so after 5 or 6 years in the ground who knows what you will have even if it was perfect before planting. I just know that once the roots get to the 1/4 inch point after that they are a problem and that can happen in one good season!!!

This is a field I dig out of. This is the owner walking in the field and one can see how far apart they are. But....here are some roots after just five years in the ground. It's those large long seeking roots that have gained the girth in those trunks. That frilly stuff so important for a bonsai pot, means nothing when ground growing.

I prefer a compromise between the two. A pot large enough to do the job and taking a little more time in growing the material. BIG, is not everything.002.JPG008a.JPG008b.JPG008c.JPG007.JPG020.JPG
 
Last edited:

Paulpash

Masterpiece
Messages
2,008
Reaction score
6,019
Location
UK. Yorkshire
If you dig them up every few years to work the roots you will defeat the whole purpose of putting them in the ground . You could accomplish the same thing in pots. Trees growing in the ground just start to get their steam at about year three and then need three to five undisturbed or it all starts over wasting precious years.

Yes this is what I've found. 1 to sleep, 1 to creep 1 to leap. This was screwed to a large chopping board. With Acer Campestre you can be brutal chopping roots back. The challenge is not growing the trunks - it's getting the internodes short. Defoliation, minimal winter cutback and root pruning I'd recommend when you are approaching refinement. In a year or 2 this is what I'll do.
 

BE.REAL

Mame
Messages
170
Reaction score
126
Location
Boston
USDA Zone
6a
Good info on here, as I have learned, sometimes I have to read between the lines sorta speak.
I have learned a bunch from these threads, esp. @leatherback , @Anthony , and @dirk hoorelbeke .

I am a conifer addict. and started ground growing, grow boxes, raised bed, and large shipping containers. we will see how they all work as time crawls by, haha.
But I will say spread them out when in the ground, and if saplings grow in colanders or something for few years before ground to get a good root bases going. the ground is good, unless you are the antsey type and will want to pull it up every other season, as mentioned is defeats the purpose. raised beds assist in controlling the soil and its "raised". grow boxes can be moved for work or light rotation.
my conifers will take longer than my D. trees, but then I usually get older conifers to get a head start sorta speak.
anyway, few things I have learned so far, and again thanks to all for info shared.
Be well.
 

BE.REAL

Mame
Messages
170
Reaction score
126
Location
Boston
USDA Zone
6a
forgot to mention the tile thing, they can be good, but if you think what your doing you will understand why spreading out is good.
on tiles, you are basically directing the roots horizontally which means the closer the trees the more entangled the roots will get...if you pull them up all the time, you are defeating the ground growing benefit.. with D. trees there roots are like young kids, spaztic and everywhere, fast. LOL
hope it made sense and be well to all!
 
Top Bottom