Need some advice please

Anthony

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Guys/Gals,

need some advice please.

You may or may not have seen the Soil teacup storm, but it is there.

How do you handle folk who have not read up on a topic.
Asking you to educate them ?

On my side, you are expected to have some knowledge on the topic,
and thus to deepen the understanding, discuss with other minds,
and not - seem - to be looking for freebees.

My natural instinct is to just stop responding.
Advice please.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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If I find information that contradicts my own experience or knowledge, I ask for an explanation.
If I find information that contradicts my own experience or knowledge, I try to explain myself.
If I have useful information to add, I add it. Or not. It depends.

If somebody asks for information, without their own knowledge or experience, I either educate - which I see as reaffirming/checking/repeating my own knowledge, because I'm wrong sometimes and I need people to tell me - or fully rely on them being able to use google themselves. It depends on the person asking, and how it's asked. When I we have a different opinion, I should explain why. I try to be open minded, and to be honest, sometimes I have to google things myself as well. And I do rely on solid new information from others sometimes.
I have been in horticulture long enough to see myths become fabricated facts and later see that technique evolve into a common practice. Unless people know why and what they're doing something wrong, they will have a hard time adjusting. If they still don't want to hear it, then that's their choice. I showed them the ropes, it's their task to use them or to leave them hanging. If they don't like the ropes, then they'll have to find the ones that suit them. That's their quest.

And sometimes, I just don't feel like it. We here on the forum have no obligations to each other. That's the nice thing about the internet. Do what your instinct tells you! It's your instinct, not ours! If you don't want to spend time on teaching, then don't. Especially when it's draining your energy. You're not getting anything in return sometimes, and sometimes even a "F- you" as a response. There's no shame in ignoring that or abandoning such threads if you ask me. Even if some people ask nice. This is the internet, they can get whatever they search for without us, IF they search for it.
 

moke

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Some students expect, especially if students think it’s something they believe makes the learning easier, how teachers refuse to help is important. “I will help, but not until you’ve got some answers, part of the solution, a few examples.” “I am not going to give you the answers, but I will give you feedback on your answers. By the end of class, we’ll have a set of good answers.”

Weaning students from their dependence on teachers is a developmental process. Rather making them do it all on their own, teachers can do some of the work, provide part of the answer, or start with one example and ask them for others. The balance of who’s doing the work gradually shifts, and that gives students a chance to figure out what the teacher is doing and why.
 

Anthony

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Moke,

the problem with me, is I love research and experimenting.
I don't need to be told.
I love independence in myself and others.
I have no problems reading and taking notes.

Yes, I know most folk don't like to read, and note taking is
anathema, but in reality, I don't have to deal with them.
The Internet is another case.
Good Day
Anthony
 

moke

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Moke,

the problem with me, is I love research and experimenting.
I don't need to be told.
I love independence in myself and others.
I have no problems reading and taking notes.

Yes, I know most folk don't like to read, and note taking is
anathema, but in reality, I don't have to deal with them.
The Internet is another case.
Good Day
Anthony
I don’t believe you read what I wrote, you asked how to deal with somebody whom wants to sponge your knowledge without seeking answers that they most likely could find themselves. You teach them to find this information themselves through questioning them. Not because you don’t know the answer but want them to. Or yes you can not deal with them and tell them to get lost. Are you asking for advice on how to do this?
 

leatherback

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I think the problem is that you assume that people do not want to do research. That, and you drop lines that do nt make sense. If people ask you for an explanation, on why you think this claim to be true, referring to google is not the way to go.

On my side, you are expected to have some knowledge on the topic,
and thus to deepen the understanding, discuss with other minds,
and not - seem - to be looking for freebees.

That is exacty the problem now isn't it. Making a claim that an organic compound turns into an inorganic compound due to composting goes against everything some people know to be true. To then state "look at google scholar for the answer", a search engine trawling pretty much all academic publications available in the world, is not really educating people. It is effectively telling people to sodd off. And some people are just not willing to accept an odd claim just because someone sais "Google it and all will be revealed".

Maybe you should realize there a lot of people who have some knowledge too, and just do not accept all that is pasted in a forum.

So how you deal with it? Provide the references to the claims you are making, if those are not your own ideas. Then people can make up their mind and not end up in an endless yes-no-yes discussion.
 

Anthony

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Leatherback,

I asked for advice because I truly did not know how to respond to you.

See what @moke has written to me - now I know more.
Thank you Moke.
Good Day
Anthony
 

leatherback

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Interesting. So what you learned was to tell me I am like someone copying someones notes and you do not want to be sent to the principles office anymore?

really?

Once again. Just making claims and stating that you cannot use organics in substrate because it will turn into glue made out of inorganics and that if anybody wants to understand, all the info is on google, really is not telling anyone anything.

in any case. I wish you a nice day. And for those who just joint in and have popcorn, here ya go. https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/appreciate-your-input.36144/page-2
 

Anthony

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Leatherback,

did I say you cannot use organics in a substrate ?
After using compost for 39 years ?
I gave you how the stuff ages.
Try re-reading.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Shinjuku

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How do you handle folk who have not read up on a topic.
Asking you to educate them ?

There are four kinds of people who ask questions, and knowing which type the person is can help guide us in how to help them the most.

  1. Type 1 is the resistor who only wants to debate without increasing in knowledge.
  2. Type 2 does not want to be told the answer. They’ve already made their decision, and all they want is confirmation that they made the right decision.
  3. Type 3 is the lazy person who only wants the easy answer.
  4. Type 4 is the person who genuinely wants to learn.

So I respond differently based on the person. Many times, if we are patient with a “Type 3” person, we can inspire them to evolve into a Type 4 person. I find it rewarding to help that happen.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@Anthony
Do like I do. Answer some questions. If the response gets too demanding, just stop responding to that thread. I have my own life. I enjoy helping, but when the help requested is more than I have time or energy for, I just stop responding to that thread.

I still answer other threads if I have time.

If a response seems to start a flame war, I usually try to smooth it over, if one smooth it over post isn't enough, I just ignore the further posts.

I love this forum, but it is not important enough to get all worked up about. It is a time filler for me.

This is no offense intended to the several members here who I truly count as friends through this forum. Most of them I have reached out to, and talk to either via phone or have met in person. This is the best part of the forum, friends I've made.
 

KiwiPlantGuy

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Hi Anthony,
Unsure if this is helpful or not.
I have received advice from you which has been very helpful, but I do find some advice you share with others is irrelevant.
Explained like this - Your growing conditions are nothing like anyone else’s. You repeat over and over the use of compost, which gets you through your dry season. But most others this style of compost will turn to pulp and be a mess. Then you talk about night temps of 15-20 deg C, with continuous days in the 30’s for near on 12 months of the year, ie - no-one can relate for this style of growing.
Then you have trees that grow continuously for 9-11 months and you wonder why your JBP can’t reduce needles past an (ordinary) length for Zones 7-9. Hmm, maybe your continuous growing season might be an issue with some temperate trees.
Yes I am having a rant, so sorry, but giving advice what works for you in your climate is pointless. Sticking to advice re growing via years of experience and the pitfalls, or philosophical debates over bonsai techniques maybe a better option.
But I am new to this game so all I say is likened to “ what would he know”.
Charles
 

Anthony

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@KiwiPlantGuy.

Charles, now you know why most tropical folk stay away from
forums that go to Sub-Tropical and Temperate.

You made one mistake, the compost when properly aged
cannot pulp.
You forget that my growing experience also stems from zone
7 in Philadelphia, USA.

I thought I was helping you out?:confused:
Perhaps you should just put me on ignore.
Good Day
Anthony

* Ihis response really shocked me.o_O:eek:
 

just.wing.it

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Sounds like a typical problem of someone wanting something for nothing, @Anthony.

Its all too common here in the DC/MD area....the way of all flesh lately...

In your case, someone wants all the knowledge without putting any effort into studying the topic or personally experimenting to learn....they want the answers but don't seem to care about having a proper fundamental understanding of the topic.
Making someone learn on their own is torturous to these types of individuals.
They seem to think "why should I have to do the hard work when someone else already knows?"..."why should I have to ever do any real work for anything ever?"....

My question for your specific topic regarding soil mix would be, do you think the one's wanting all the answers without the legwork are even serious about the art of bonsai?
How serious can one be if they won't even pick up a book?


I have had trainees at work who are the same way...they have no interest in the field, they dont like the work, they are generally ignorant people, they don't put forth any effort to gain knowledge or experience of any kind....but they expect a paycheck at the end of the week as if they are entitled to it.

Not to put down an entire generation, but they're all "millenials"....as am I...
Can we really blame millenials for being so ignorant and lazy or is it a result of previous generations coddling and overprotecting them?

I don't have a great answer for your question, unfortunately....
I guess what I would do is, try to make them realize what their end goals are....in bonsai and in life...they may have life plans that make bonsai not realistic....or they may think they like bonsai until they realize all it entails, like a fad....
Do something that will simply make them begin to think, instead of just asking others for answers.

Bonsai is an ongoing labor of love.
Its not like tacking a band poster to your wall and calling the room decorated.
 

jeanluc83

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Asking you to educate them ?

You are assuming that when someone questions you, you are educating them. Perhaps it is they who are trying to educate you.

You also seem to have this idea that teacher and student are mutually exclusive. I look at this site is more of a debate among peers. Most things in bonsai are not single solution problems. There are many ways of accomplishing the same thing. But as with any debate you must be willing to defend your position.

Telling someone to just go google something is not debating or educating it is being an ass. It tells me you don't know the subject enough to discuss the topic yourself. You accuse people of being lazy students, there can be lazy teachers too. At the very least give the title of the article that you read or a link. That would move the discussion forward.
 

just.wing.it

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Perhaps it is they who are trying to educate you.
This is a good point.

I will say, I have learned things from trainees, good ones who are serious. Maybe not so much learning something new, but learning how another person's thought process gets them to the same end....which makes it easier for me to teach, all in all.
 

leatherback

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In your case, someone wants all the knowledge without putting any effort into studying the topic or personally experimenting to learn....they want the answers but don't seem to care about having a proper fundamental understanding of the topic.

Interesting. So you are saying that when something is claimed which does not strive with typical understanding of the topic at hand, and someone asks for an explanation of that claim, the person asking does not have a proper understanding of the matter at hand? And is not interested in learning, or even is not serious about bonsai? Pfiew. Quite a leap there.

Guess I am out of my league. Because that is not how I was taught. In have been trained to look for the "why" or "how". The observed "what" is less relevant. (So do not ask what is happening, but rather try to understand why it is happening and how the process works).

I'll stay out of the subject I suppose. For me, compost aging into inorganic matter...

Oh, yeah, one last thing:
did I say you cannot use organics in a substrate ?
Not in so many words. You said that using bark in substrate will turn into compost in a matter of months, which will hold 20 times its own weight in water, so one should not put bark in your substrate, especially not for pines, if I recall correctly.
 

leatherback

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elling someone to just go google something is not debating or educating it is being an ass. It tells me you don't know the subject enough to discuss the topic yourself. You accuse people of being lazy students, there can be lazy teachers too. At the very least give the title of the article that you read or a link.

Exactly:
To then state "look at google scholar for the answer", a search engine trawling pretty much all academic publications available in the world, is not really educating people. It is effectively telling people to sodd off. And some people are just not willing to accept an odd claim just because someone sais "Google it and all will be revealed".
 

just.wing.it

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My response is very general...that's why I related it to my work.

I am not aware of the triggering event for this thread.

Don't mean to offend you, if you are the one Anthony is inquiring about...
But if you have an experience that someone else contradicts, then by all means that is good grounds to ask, of course.

Maybe each could learn from the other.
 
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