Shohin J. Maple

bwaynef

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Here's another tree that thru no fault of my own found its way to my backyard. It suffered a bit of dieback last winter or early spring so was mostly left to get healthy last year. I believe it was also slip-potted into this pot after its original fell and cracked. This pot's slightly larger and backfilled with bonsai soil. It didn't get a proper repot.

It has its faults as well, but should be a fun project tree.
 

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RobertB

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I like it. Whats the diameter of the trunk base?
 

JudyB

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If you have a chance in the spring, you should repot it in a shallow wide container, get those roots spreading out wide. Looks like a good project, do you know what type it is? And is that a graft, or just different bark ages?
 

Smoke

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I like this tree much better. Lots of work here but a lot of the structure part is there.


If you have a chance in the spring, you should repot it in a shallow wide container, get those roots spreading out wide.
This seems odd to me. What’s the reasoning for that move?
 
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Looks like you going to have to decide which trunk line you going to keep and get rid of the other. I would say the sooner the better so the wound can heal.
 

JudyB

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I like this tree much better. Lots of work here but a lot of the structure part is there.



This seems odd to me. What’s the reasoning for that move?
I find that Japanese Maple can grow really nice surface roots with little encouragement in a shallow pot. So I put them in shallow but wide (so they still have room for development purposes) pots for that reason. Works for me.
 

Smoke

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Looks like you going to have to decide which trunk line you going to keep and get rid of the other. I would say the sooner the better so the wound can heal.

Just for giggles think about the statement you just made a remember this is a maple.
 

LanceMac10

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the reasoning for that move?





Rememberin' you talking about just putting a tree in a real shallow pot and wiring-in right on the bottom of the pot. So this question seems a bit leading.
Try it out, says I...so I did with a Japanese Maple I bought at a landscape nursery. Standard, big-ass can with potting soil/perlite nursery mix......


….three years after....
DSC01623.JPG


could always be better, sure. But you might be onto something. Long way to go, but the journey is always better than after you have the cigarette, know what I mean?;):D:D:D:D:D:D:D
 

Smoke

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Rememberin' you talking about just putting a tree in a real shallow pot and wiring-in right on the bottom of the pot. So this question seems a bit leading.
Try it out, says I...so I did with a Japanese Maple I bought at a landscape nursery. Standard, big-ass can with potting soil/perlite nursery mix......


….three years after....
View attachment 220940


could always be better, sure. But you might be onto something. Long way to go, but the journey is always better than after you have the cigarette, know what I mean?;):D:D:D:D:D:D:D

That looks awesome
but....

How tall is the tree?
How tall will the tree be?
Is this the final size pot?

Wayne has a small tree. I assume it will be shohin. Maybe 8 inches at the most tall. It will be in an appropriate size pot for shohin. Maybe 5 to 6 inches wide by 4 inches deep and 1.5 inches tall. That would be the correct size. Looking at what you have in the photo would that root ball fit into the pot I describe? What would have to be done to all that you built in the big shallow pot? Would it have been a waste?

How about building a tree and then lastly, just ground layer the finished tree off what ever you have and gain a tree built to the correct proportions and a new root ball that will fit in the correct pot?

I have nothing to gauge these ideas on with out seeing the whole tree. For you, you may be gold right now, for Judy a root ball that big would be a waste.
 

Smoke

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Post five and seven is more engaging for me.

Thats the one that has to be thought out.
 

bwaynef

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Looks like you going to have to decide which trunk line you going to keep and get rid of the other. I would say the sooner the better so the wound can heal.
Just for giggles think about the statement you just made a remember this is a maple.
Post five and seven is more engaging for me.

Thats the one that has to be thought out.

So the question is whether maples need to be cut to a (single?) trunkline?
 

Smoke

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So the question is whether maples need to be cut to a (single?) trunkline?

Well technically it already is a single trunk. The question is whether to remove half of a fork and turn a forking trunk line to a single sinuous trunk line.
Lets examine a maple in nature and how they might grow.
A maple may grow as a single trunk with a semi round ball of foliage. The trunk forking rather low on the stump and moving skyward.
maple_tree.jpg

serveimage.jpg

serveimage (1).jpg

Many times the trunk of a maple may be built out of many trunks emanating from a clump form. This is how many Acer Palmatums in a yard tend to grow. Unless one removes some of the trunks early these trunks can grow and move outward in fanciful shapes searching for light.

serveimage (2).jpg

As bonsai we deal with a tree on a very small scale. As shohin the scale is further reduced by half again or more. To build a maple tree with clump style looking trunks would very difficult indeed. Not impossible but harder to keep in scale. So Wayne's trunk starts as a single trunk and forks above the base of the trunk. This is a very natural look for a maple. At this point it seems bulky but that is because the stubs of the forks are shorter and have no secondary or tertiary branching going on.

If we remove one of the forks we are moving into what I call "main stream bonsai culture". We are taught early by teachers and books to prune for taper. Taper this and taper that. Well taper on a bonsai is good and helps convey a compressed image of a real tree to a small image 18 inches tall. Even in a shohin bonsai tree the sumo type trunks are popular for the powerful imagery they convey. But maples are not powerful, they are graceful and feminine and moving away from that means that forever more the image must look more powerful and masculine.

Removing one of those forks also means that branching will now follow a more orderly style of arrangement. In looking at the images above and the fullness of the foliage and branch structure, it is easy to see that the branching is much more laid back and more free. The branching now will follow the more traditional one, two back branch format cork screwing up the single tapering trunk. Probably the most un-natural shape for a maple. I too have many of these type of "pine tree" shaped maples.

serveimage (3).jpg
serveimage (4).jpg



While these trees have a beauty all their own they do not really scream maple bonsai. What if we were to radically slant the trunk to the right or left and develop one of the trunks and slowly inhibit the growth of the other. The wye shape of the tree as it is contributes to the symmetrical nature of the wye. It now has the appearance of a slingshot and they will be hard to disguise. If the trunk were allowed to grow out in the ground it may look much like this tree which on its own looks pretty good. I would be happy to work on a tree like this as it could be refined further.

1a.jpg

If the wye's were allowed to grow out the tree could look much like this.

1a1.JPG

By tipping the tree and allowing one of the wye's to grow longer an image like this might be achieved. Looking and finding pictures like this to compliment this article is very hard indeed. My point is to think about this choice and be ready to style accordingly.

Hope this helps.
1d.jpg
DSC_009180.JPG
 

Adair M

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@Smoke , I see the point you’re making, and allowing one trunk to thicken while trying to restrain the other will take a long time, and result in a much larger tree than shohin.

I don’t think he can make a shohin out of this tree using both trunks. The material just does not appear to be suited for the “slim elegant feminine” Japanese Maple style. The base, the thick lower trunk both are too powerful for the “elegant” style.

Which leads us to:

Pine tree or sumo style.

I like the “slim elegant” style, but I don’t think this material is suited for it unless you go for a much taller tree. Even then, the low fork begins with two equal sized trunks. You’ll be fighting the slingshot look for years. You have always advocated starting with decent material. Which this is for a sumo or pine tree style. But not for “slim elegant”.

I vote for chopping one of the trunks off.

Do the “slim elegant” thing with another piece of material.
 

namnhi

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Well technically it already is a single trunk. The question is whether to remove half of a fork and turn a forking trunk line to a single sinuous trunk line.
Lets examine a maple in nature and how they might grow.
A maple may grow as a single trunk with a semi round ball of foliage. The trunk forking rather low on the stump and moving skyward.
View attachment 220998

View attachment 220999

View attachment 221000

Many times the trunk of a maple may be built out of many trunks emanating from a clump form. This is how many Acer Palmatums in a yard tend to grow. Unless one removes some of the trunks early these trunks can grow and move outward in fanciful shapes searching for light.

View attachment 221001

As bonsai we deal with a tree on a very small scale. As shohin the scale is further reduced by half again or more. To build a maple tree with clump style looking trunks would very difficult indeed. Not impossible but harder to keep in scale. So Wayne's trunk starts as a single trunk and forks above the base of the trunk. This is a very natural look for a maple. At this point it seems bulky but that is because the stubs of the forks are shorter and have no secondary or tertiary branching going on.

If we remove one of the forks we are moving into what I call "main stream bonsai culture". We are taught early by teachers and books to prune for taper. Taper this and taper that. Well taper on a bonsai is good and helps convey a compressed image of a real tree to a small image 18 inches tall. Even in a shohin bonsai tree the sumo type trunks are popular for the powerful imagery they convey. But maples are not powerful, they are graceful and feminine and moving away from that means that forever more the image must look more powerful and masculine.

Removing one of those forks also means that branching will now follow a more orderly style of arrangement. In looking at the images above and the fullness of the foliage and branch structure, it is easy to see that the branching is much more laid back and more free. The branching now will follow the more traditional one, two back branch format cork screwing up the single tapering trunk. Probably the most un-natural shape for a maple. I too have many of these type of "pine tree" shaped maples.

View attachment 221002
View attachment 221003



While these trees have a beauty all their own they do not really scream maple bonsai. What if we were to radically slant the trunk to the right or left and develop one of the trunks and slowly inhibit the growth of the other. The wye shape of the tree as it is contributes to the symmetrical nature of the wye. It now has the appearance of a slingshot and they will be hard to disguise. If the trunk were allowed to grow out in the ground it may look much like this tree which on its own looks pretty good. I would be happy to work on a tree like this as it could be refined further.

View attachment 221004

If the wye's were allowed to grow out the tree could look much like this.

View attachment 221005

By tipping the tree and allowing one of the wye's to grow longer an image like this might be achieved. Looking and finding pictures like this to compliment this article is very hard indeed. My point is to think about this choice and be ready to style accordingly.

Hope this helps.
View attachment 221006
View attachment 221007
Thanks Al. Give me a new perspective on styling a maple.
Adair made a good point which most would agree on this one.
 
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Smoke

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@Smoke , I see the point you’re making, and allowing one trunk to thicken while trying to restrain the other will take a long time, and result in a much larger tree than shohin.

I don’t think he can make a shohin out of this tree using both trunks. The material just does not appear to be suited for the “slim elegant feminine” Japanese Maple style. The base, the thick lower trunk both are too powerful for the “elegant” style.

Which leads us to:

Pine tree or sumo style.

I like the “slim elegant” style, but I don’t think this material is suited for it unless you go for a much taller tree. Even then, the low fork begins with two equal sized trunks. You’ll be fighting the slingshot look for years. You have always advocated starting with decent material. Which this is for a sumo or pine tree style. But not for “slim elegant”.

I vote for chopping one of the trunks off.

Do the “slim elegant” thing with another piece of material.
I have no idea which one is best suited. It will all depend on what the OP wants to do. A big tree or a little tree, which I showed. My point was more about "thinking " before doing which is why I questioned post five in the first place. I think if one really looks at all my posts they will see that for the most part I am offering differing solutions to otherwise difficult material, which is something I would never work on in the first place. Its so much easier to work with beautiful rather than crappy. Which is why I get a bad rap, cause I call it the way I see it.

You and I both know that after about 15 to 20 years of bonsai that half the material that gets posted here would never be worked on. All Growing pains.

Here are a couple fat ones I have in my backyard. There is only one way to style these and I have so many that making two more first branch second branch back branch, is unappealing to me. They just sit there until something to do with them strikes my fancy. There are those that would kill for the chance to have these in their yard. THATS "WHY" I FEEL THE WAY I DO ABOUT MAPLES.

DSC_0019.JPG
DSC_0021.JPG
 

Adair M

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I have no idea which one is best suited. It will all depend on what the OP wants to do. A big tree or a little tree, which I showed. My point was more about "thinking " before doing which is why I questioned post five in the first place. I think if one really looks at all my posts they will see that for the most part I am offering differing solutions to otherwise difficult material, which is something I would never work on in the first place. Its so much easier to work with beautiful rather than crappy. Which is why I get a bad rap, cause I call it the way I see it.

You and I both know that after about 15 to 20 years of bonsai that half the material that gets posted here would never be worked on. All Growing pains.

Here are a couple fat ones I have in my backyard. There is only one way to style these and I have so many that making two more first branch second branch back branch, is unappealing to me. They just sit there until something to do with them strikes my fancy. There are those that would kill for the chance to have these in their yard. THATS "WHY" I FEEL THE WAY I DO ABOUT MAPLES.

View attachment 221040
View attachment 221041
Perhaps it’s time to sell those two to someone who would really like to have them, and use the funds to seek out material better suited for the style you favor?

We’re both “getting up there” in age. Life is short.

I know that for myself, that while I know how to work with rough stock and get it going, for me I enjoy taking more advanced trees “to the next level”. Spending more time on fewer trees. Because as trees get more highly refined, they require more effort to keep them there. As ramification increases, there’s more twigs to wire. More needles to pull. More decisions to be made. Pot choice becomes more critical.

Oh, I still have a few trees in plastic nursery containers, but maybe only 10% of my trees are “rough stock”. The rest are either show ready, or are within a year or two.

I bet there are many people on this forum who would love to be able to work on trident trunks like those!
 

bwaynef

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Repotted. It took a lot more pruning than I'd expected. There were plenty of roots left, but I cleared out to almost right up under the trunk. I got rid of downward facing roots, crossing roots, and wrong-facing roots.
 

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