Over styling a Bonsai...

Bolero

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Just viewing Eisei-en Bonsai and seeing the Itoigawa Shimpaku Juniper... I feel it is not the way they actually grow and or look....and feel there is a general, typical need to style in this manner, I understand and acknowledge that some Pruning & Adjusting may be in order to closer resemble the Bonsai look, however when and why do we cross the line from original looking to some bizarre looking tree...???
 

rockm

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Just viewing Eisei-en Bonsai and seeing the Itoigawa Shimpaku Juniper... I feel it is not the way they actually grow and or look....and feel there is a general, typical need to style in this manner, I understand and acknowledge that some Pruning & Adjusting may be in order to closer resemble the Bonsai look, however when and why do we cross the line from original looking to some bizarre looking tree...???
Bonsai is NOT about replicating the exact details of a tree in nature. It is about creating a tree that speaks to people. While this style of tree doesn't appeal to you, it does to others.

"Some pruning and adjusting" does not really produce bonsai. The most "natural looking" trees can require a tremendous amount of extreme work.
 

Bolero

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Without being too critical....I want to say selecting a singular dwarf tree and growing/styling it as a Bonsai in the typical Japanese Art Form is one thing....and collecting an original Shimpaku Itoigawa or equivalent then distorting its basic shape ie. pruning into pads, branch levels, and bark appearance is a total mis-representation of that tree/shrub as found in its original location. I believe, in most cases, less is better…...
 

rockm

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Without being too critical....I want to say selecting a singular dwarf tree and growing/styling it as a Bonsai in the typical Japanese Art Form is one thing....and collecting an original Shimpaku Itoigawa or equivalent then distorting its basic shape ie. pruning into pads, branch levels, and bark appearance is a total mis-representation of that tree/shrub as found in its original location. I believe, in most cases, less is better…...
What is "typical bonsai?" What is "misrepresenting" a species? both are pretty subjective. Strict unbending adherence to keeping trees and shrubs in the same shape as in their original locations leads to silly looking bonsai.

What you don't like is formal Japanese styling. Fair enough. Taste is taste. I find that people trying to keep species "as they look in the wild" sometimes miss the forest for the trees.

I've posted this oak before. It's a Texas live oak collected near Austin. I've been styling it for the last 20 years now. I was told about 15 years ago by someone on another forum who lives in the Southern U.S. and loves southern live oaks that I should chop the trunk at the first low bend in the trunk "so it will develop a multi-trunked spreading apex" more in line with how southern Live oak grow. Well, uh, that would have eliminated the most interesting twists in the 300 year old trunk and made the tree mostly worthless. I've also been told this tree "has been styled to look like a pine." Whatever, that's the design the trunk suggested when I got it and what I went with
livoak.jpg
 

choppychoppy

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I believe, in most cases, less is better…..

I have found in almost all cases folks that say this simply do not have the skills, energy, diligence and dedication to create the best trees. It almost always results in mediocre trees that the owner 'prefers' in a less is more style but in reality it is just a cop out.
 

rockm

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BTW, the tree you're talking about is valued at $200,000 or so. It's value, according to a series of posts on this tree on Eisei-en, lies in the intricate deadwood entwined with live veins in the tree's apex--not a common feature. The styling is meant to frame that feature and open up the tree to make it visible. Again, how that feature is highlighted is up to the artist and their taste and skill level. That formidable skill level is also highlighted in the styling--try detailing a shimpaku with wiring out to tertiary twigs---not easy and requires knowledge not only of the tree's needs, but some fancy fingerwork. You may not like the formal approach, but the Japanese market REALLY likes it and it is reflected in the estimate value...
 

Cosmos

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Bjornholm seems to be firmly on the traditional side in terms of styling. Some like it, personally, it’s not a style that speaks to me. I don’t know if this comes from where he trained or his personal tastes, or a mix of both. Probably both. I think his father was a bonsai professional too (?).

We should avoid looking at styling in terms of very fixed, permanent "schools". Personal tastes change and evolve, mainstream tastes change and evolve, in Japan as in everywhere else. This splendid video featuring Kobayashi shows this really well:

 

penumbra

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I understand what Bolero is saying here. I am amazed at what many bonsai pros can produce but I have a deep and reverent affection for bonsai that mimic natural growing trees. There is definitely place for both views. I have seen many pieces that had unnaturally massive trunks that look like they are ready to collapse upon themselves and some pieces that were so twisted it looks like they are about to explode, and they are indeed dynamic and amazing works. Most of these are beyond my skill level. I have only recently gotten back into bonsai, though I do have a few I have had for 30 years. I tried my hand at bonsai first about 40 years ago as a form of meditation and still I like my trees to impart a sense of tranquility. Thus my favorite styles personally are literati and windswept which exemplify this feeling.
But I am still young, not quite 70 yet, and I have a lot to learn and a lot more to experience.
 

bonsaichile

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I have found in almost all cases folks that say this simply do not have the skills, energy, diligence and dedication to create the best trees. It almost always results in mediocre trees that the owner 'prefers' in a less is more style but in reality it is just a cop out.
Exactly. Just like those who say that "rules limit my creativiy." Instead, what happens is that rules and guidelines reveal their limitations and their trees' flaws, and that's why they don't like them!
 

Adair M

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Just viewing Eisei-en Bonsai and seeing the Itoigawa Shimpaku Juniper... I feel it is not the way they actually grow and or look....and feel there is a general, typical need to style in this manner, I understand and acknowledge that some Pruning & Adjusting may be in order to closer resemble the Bonsai look, however when and why do we cross the line from original looking to some bizarre looking tree...???
If you look carefully, there is a little metal tag hanging from the bottom right branch. It is a designation that states that the tree is an “Important Cultural Masterpiece”. I don’t know how many bonsai have been awarded such a designation, but it is a great honor.

Now, as for the styling, it is styled using the “pagoda” style, mimicking the temples.

Bjorne is a master of that style. In Japan, it is very popular, and there is a market for trees styled on that manner. Bjorne also uses the techniques when styling other types, he is known for putting very straight, level bottoms of pads on his work. Again, this is very marketable in Japan. Not on shinpaku, but also JWP.

I personally prefer a softer style, more like what Kimora and Suzuki do, but I respect the skill and patience it takes to do what Bjorn does. I asked him about it at the Nationals, and his response was he wires and styles thinking about what the tree will look like in a year after new growth has come in. Immediately after wiring, the tree does look a bit artificial, but a year later it softens up and looks more natural.
 

Bolero

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I greatly appreciate all the response except for the few that don't understand What "Less is More" means or involves...
 

Shinjuku

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"Less is More"

Just like those who say that "rules limit my creativiy."!

I happened to come across a quote yesterday that might be helpful for this discussion. It's from T.S. Eliot, who was one of the more influential poets of the 20th century:
T.S. Eliot said:
"When forced to work within a strict framework the imagination is taxed to its utmost – and will produce its richest ideas. Given total freedom, the work is likely to sprawl."

At first glance, constraint and creativity may seem to be diametrically opposed. However when constraint is seen, not as a hindrance, but as an asset, it opens up immense doors for creativity and artistic expression. The ability to expand one's creativity while being mindful of constraints and rules is a skill, and it's a skill that can be learned and developed. Maybe similar to how Aikido teaches that every attack creates an opening to be attacked, every constraint creates opportunities for creativity to expand far beyond what would otherwise be available. It can be challenging to be creative when there are few rules to propel your creative mind forward, and it can also be challenging to be creative when the existing rules are perceived as restrictive. So perhaps it's more helpful to see rules for what they really are: Stepping stones to help our creativity reach its greatest potential.
 

rockm

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I greatly appreciate all the response except for the few that don't understand What "Less is More" means or involves...
Sorry if I'm one of those who don't understand the "less is more" stuff, and I'll just add onto the tonnage of my responses with a couple of things--if you think bonsai is just about adjusting branches on trees plucked off of magical mountains, you probably haven't worked with many old collected trees. Old and picturesque doesn't automatically translate into 'instant bonsai."
It mostly equals "I gotta get rid of MOST of this bush to make it look like a tree."

EVERY bonsai you probably admire has probably had the living S#!% detailed out of it with wire, hard pruning etc. Less is indeed more, BUT collected trees are ALWAYS less than what they were in the wild, sometimes by 99 percent. They are far far FAR away from the "natural" bush or tree the collector dug up.
 
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