Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
We're speaking to gradients of growing mediums' ability to obtain higher levels of growth, not all or nothing at all.
Root Growth: Soil vs Bonsai Soil
- Thread starter Jzack605
- Start date
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Not sure if that is a response to my comment, but if it is...even when you remove the fertilizer (if using organic) or stop applying liquid fertilizers after decandling, the JBP still grow
just fine. So it's not all or nothing.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
It is well known that water perches at the bottom of a sandy mix, if, and only if, there is a layer of coarse materials below that was used as "drainage" in the past (and people still do it). I've never seen an explanation for why it works that way. Maybe, the surface tension between the more tightly packed smaller grains is greater than the surface tension between the sand and the gravel below. There would be less surface contact because of the open spaces at the interface. Without the coarse material being there, the sand would be in full surface contact with the pot and drain excess water more fully?
Funny, I never or rarely feed before my trees are fully leafed-out to reduce leaf size. I feed after that to encourage next year's bud growth and second flush. (I don't grow any JBP).
Funny, I never or rarely feed before my trees are fully leafed-out to reduce leaf size. I feed after that to encourage next year's bud growth and second flush. (I don't grow any JBP).
My comment applied to post #99, not yours.
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D
Deleted member 21616
Guest
“Higher levels of growth”
What does that even mean?
Do I want fast growth if my trees in bonsai pots? Fast growth usually means long internodes. And often, large leaves.
Or, do I want tight growth with lots of short internodes, highly ramified branches, small leaves and needles?
Let me think about that...
The commercial growers want growth to be as fast as possible to get the tree large enough to be saleable. Do they care about long internodes? Not at all. They might want “bushy” because they know “foliage sells”. Will the commercial growers care about the nebari and/or circling roots? Not at all they know that eventually the tree will be planted in the ground to grow out any which way. All they want is for it to grow to size quickly. And then when they sell it to the retailer, it not die waiting for the consumer to buy it. And then, not to die within a year after the consumer buys it and plants it.
They are NOT CONCERNED with having a root system that will be able to be contained in a small pot for decades.
They are NOT CONCERNED with short internodes.
They are NOT CONCERNED with growing trunks and branches with taper.
They are NOT CONCERNED with developing attractive nebari.
Instead...
They ARE CONCERNED with growing as fast as possible.
They ARE CONCERNED with producing the tree as cheaply as possible. Both with the cost of the soil, the amount of water, and the amount of labor cost.
They ARE CONCERNED that the tree live at least a year past it’s retail sale.
Now, compare the commercial growers concerns and don’t cares to what we as bonsai people want in our trees.
Maybe, we ought to do things a little differently than the commercial growers.
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
I will be developing a display garden this spring and summer.KICKSTART for some bench material?
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
And you're assuming I'm not growing nice bonsai? You're getting a little bit out over your skis... The metaphor is: stuff can or cannot grow in mediums that are wetter than your high drainage mix. If you must only grow nice bonsai in bone-dry conditions and all else are going to be failures or at least left wanting, then the millions of things grown by commercial growers can't exist. Conversely, if they do grows millions and millions of plants, including pines, in soggy conditions, then for sure super bone dry mixes are not required for pines in bonsai. Lay on, McDuff...
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Who said anything about “bone dry”?
As to whether you have nice bonsai or not, I can’t tell. I’ve only seen one reasonably close up picture of one of your trees: a forest, and I couldn’t really see that well enough to pass any sort of judgement.
You have seen many of mine.
The millions of commercial nursery trees you reference are not bonsai. I’m not saying they won’t live in their nursery pots. For a while. Bonsai are kept in pots that are far smaller than the average nursery pot. Every cubic inch is important. A nurseryman never root prunes. If the tree gets pot bound, it’s pulled from the old pot and stuck in a bigger one and new potting soil is back filled around it.
Is that how you grow your bonsai?
I have seen many bonsai that have been treated that way! In fact, I own one, a JWP. It had been in a pot for many years. When I bought it, the seller wanted to keep the pot. So, I took it out, wrapped the root ball in plastic until I was able to pot it. It was way over potted. I started reducing the root ball, starting at the bottom. I found 3 layers of matted roots! Where it had been pulled out, no root work performed, just up potted! The screens that used to be covering the container holes were still there! Three layers of them!
You say you pot your trees kind of deep. Why? Do you have layers of old matted roots?
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
From the photos you've posted, and from the pics Adair has posted (although there a bit apples to oranges with deciduous/pine) I'd say Adair skis perfectly well...
I put my solid organic fertilizer in teabags to minimize the fines from getting into the soil. Every time I water, some NPK is leached out, and made available to the tree in liquid form.
If I want to stop fertilizing, I can pick up the teabag, and the fertilizer will get washed out in about a week.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Post 97, Post 24 & 47, Post 22, Post 16
You be the judge. And these are typical pots. And you're still being condescending
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
You wouldnt want to use the Walter Pall method of fertilizing.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
And... you are arguing with a highly trained bonsaist.
If I were you I would try to soak some of this guy's advice in.
I can guarantee he knows as much about this bonsai stuff as anyone.
How long you been at it?
40,50 years or more of experience like Adair or Vance?
But yet you post crap like this in response to Vance. He's being very generous still trying to help after that little insult.
But that's why I'm here.
And this.
Apparently you haven't seen one of Adair' or Vances trees. Or if you did you wouldn't know a world class tree from a log. Which is fairly obvious. These guys have had trees in National shows. Invitation only. Have you? Will you? If you have or will in the next say 2 years I'll be quiet. But once again I think you're just trying to start an argument because your mix blows no matter how you spin it.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
It's not something nasty, is it? He doesn't accept New Jersey's brownfield development shipments? Three Mile Island soil? Hudson River spoils
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
You have the sense of humor of a Troll. And, you're condescending, too. A nice combination, but I'm not intimidated. I respect nice trees for what they are, but don't automatically attribute all the knowledge in the world to the owners. I won't be exhibiting any trees in any invitational shows because I don't have those kinds of trees. That doesn't mean I don't have nice trees, and doesn't mean that I'm not knowledgeable in horticulture. I won't shut up to please you or anybody else. I won't give up trying to spread new ideas. If you don't like it, you know what you can do...
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Hahahahaha!
Condecending?
Troll?
Me?
Why I never!
I never asked you to please me now did I?
Your new idea is an old idea and has been replaced.
So you're out of luck there.
Your "new" idea works great for landscape nurseries. They have been using it for years.
I worked at one, I know.
Now, I won't explain it to you because it has already been explained to you by Adair.
As for what I can do,explain that please. Let's hope it isn't something about me having relations with myself.
Because people tell me that all the time.
I'm hoping it's something original this time.
Something "new" like your special dirt idea.
I was hoping for pictures more like this:
Where we can see a bit more detail of the design and development that has gone into each tree.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Let me jump into the discussion and be condescending too. I cannot believe this is going on for 6 pages already!
In the end, it is all about allowing the roots to freely breathe. If you keep your plants under a cover, it will not catch the rain, and you can control how wet the soil gets. If you cannot, and you live in a country wehere winter might mean 6 weeks of continuous drizzle, you need something that does not cause a mucky mud in your pots. This is my situation, and the reason for using a substrate that is as open as they come. Whether that is coarse cocos fibres of grainy substrate. I choose the latter, as you do NOT want to repot well-developed trees every other year. It will top you from refining the crown. And the latter is exactly what I dee in your pictures. Trees with coarse branches and low levels of ramification.
If you think that you are in any way creating high level bonsai.. From what I can see in the pictures.. I would say you are about 15 years of development behind the trees of those by other people who have been discussing your "new" substrate mix. So please stop berating those who have tried both the mix you proposa and the coarse mix and accept that maybe, someone else has better knowledge than you.
