Root Growth: Soil vs Bonsai Soil

Forsoothe!

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,878
Reaction score
9,248
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
6b
Here in post #120, let's count the number of published formulae: 1. Originally, the post inquired about specifics. Even if my mix was the best for everybody in every situation, it wouldn't rate being the only mix published with a pretty full explanation of origin and uses.2015 Seiju Elm b.JPG2017 Siberian Peashrub a.JPG2018_05102018MeijerShow0031 a.JPGBxS 2018_0518HostaSports20180012.JPGJ C 20160910_175643.jpgJcBP1 20180531_162118.jpgTf & FBD 2016 Icon.JPGThese are some of my trees. All from scratch. I've been doing this 20 years, so none will have more than I can do, myself, within that time frame from a standing start. If others do better, good for them. I am pleased with mine being mine. You will see no potatoes with leaves, I don't like chopped trees. I'm still learning techniques which is a horse of another color. And leatherback, you too, are condescending. Who do you think you are going to convince by lording purchased trees as if your own? Those people who started young have an advantage on those who start later in life. That's life, not counted as a shortcoming. Buying expensive, exquisite trees is one avenue, but that's someone else's work which I do not call my own. I like to make trees, and these are not bad, so I won't apologize for them.
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,388
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
@Forsoothe! ,

here is what is used down here - it is very simple and
depends on particle size [ the ball bearing principle ]

5 mm Silica based gravel
Aged compost [ has sat damp in a covered barrel - weed seeds germinate
and die in the dark ]

if needed for more water hp;ding capacity -
5 mm crushed building brick [ porous ]

Soil goes from -

low organic - 9 parts gravel - 1 part aged compost - used on
our local Ficus p. controls the excessive trunk thickening.

higher organic -
3.5 parts gravel
3.5 crushed red brick
3 aged compost

used on for example thirsty trees - Tamarindus i.

Trees are either full sun or a variation of dappled light.

The idea is - compost holds 20 times its weight in water / fertilizer
supports microbes [ 417 million microbes per gram
as opposed to 26 million microbes for normal soil.
source - Austin - Texas - GVT sheets ]

We work mostly by Rodale's Organic farming.
Have never had to use fungicide or insecticide or other cides.

Next year will year 40 in Bonsai - Hobby.
See Smoke's topic for oldest trees

30 year soil core check [ using the pie technique for soil core
renewal ] all that was found was fine feeder roots.
The inorganics are indestructable as roots crushing goes.
Let the soil wars rage.
Good Day
Anthony

* not sure if compost would need charcoal's help.

We check health by the number of branchlets and leaves a tree
can hold.

Down to 3 mm soil on test trees.

Ever read at ---- Garden Myths ?
 

Smoke

Ignore-Amus
Messages
11,668
Reaction score
20,724
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
That's life, not counted as a shortcoming. Buying expensive, exquisite trees is one avenue, but that's someone else's work which I do not call my own. I like to make trees, and these are not bad, so I won't apologize for them.

Tell it Brother!
 

DirkvanDreven

Shohin
Messages
463
Reaction score
1,055
Location
Wageningen, The Netherlands
USDA Zone
8b
@Forsoothe! ,

here is what is used down here - it is very simple and
depends on particle size [ the ball bearing principle ]

5 mm Silica based gravel
Aged compost [ has sat damp in a covered barrel - weed seeds germinate
and die in the dark ]

if needed for more water hp;ding capacity -
5 mm crushed building brick [ porous ]

Soil goes from -

low organic - 9 parts gravel - 1 part aged compost - used on
our local Ficus p. controls the excessive trunk thickening.

higher organic -
3.5 parts gravel
3.5 crushed red brick
3 aged compost

used on for example thirsty trees - Tamarindus i.

Trees are either full sun or a variation of dappled light.

The idea is - compost holds 20 times its weight in water / fertilizer
supports microbes [ 417 million microbes per gram
as opposed to 26 million microbes for normal soil.
source - Austin - Texas - GVT sheets ]

We work mostly by Rodale's Organic farming.
Have never had to use fungicide or insecticide or other cides.

Next year will year 40 in Bonsai - Hobby.
See Smoke's topic for oldest trees

30 year soil core check [ using the pie technique for soil core
renewal ] all that was found was fine feeder roots.
The inorganics are indestructable as roots crushing goes.
Let the soil wars rage.
Good Day
Anthony

* not sure if compost would need charcoal's help.

We check health by the number of branchlets and leaves a tree
can hold.

Down to 3 mm soil on test trees.

Ever read at ---- Garden Myths ?
Antony, you seem not to realise that you are living in the tropics! You often advise to use earthenware pots, that would break in the first frosts. The sole purpose of your soil is to retain enough water for your trees. We, in other parts of the world, are faced with other problems: So much rain for weeks that my 5 year old white pine seedlings died. Followed by dry and warm periods that made watering two or three times a day necessary. Freezes in winter that would break your earthenware pots.
I very much like your enthusiasm and dedication, but what works for you in your climate (lovely climate btw, I used to live in the Carabian for several years and spend several vacations there), might not work in other climates.
 

Forsoothe!

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,878
Reaction score
9,248
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
6b
@Forsoothe! ,

here is what is used down here - it is very simple and
depends on particle size [ the ball bearing principle ]

5 mm Silica based gravel
Aged compost [ has sat damp in a covered barrel - weed seeds germinate
and die in the dark ]

if needed for more water hp;ding capacity -
5 mm crushed building brick [ porous ]

Soil goes from -

low organic - 9 parts gravel - 1 part aged compost - used on
our local Ficus p. controls the excessive trunk thickening.

higher organic -
3.5 parts gravel
3.5 crushed red brick
3 aged compost

used on for example thirsty trees - Tamarindus i.

Trees are either full sun or a variation of dappled light.

The idea is - compost holds 20 times its weight in water / fertilizer
supports microbes [ 417 million microbes per gram
as opposed to 26 million microbes for normal soil.
source - Austin - Texas - GVT sheets ]

We work mostly by Rodale's Organic farming.
Have never had to use fungicide or insecticide or other cides.

Next year will year 40 in Bonsai - Hobby.
See Smoke's topic for oldest trees

30 year soil core check [ using the pie technique for soil core
renewal ] all that was found was fine feeder roots.
The inorganics are indestructable as roots crushing goes.
Let the soil wars rage.
Good Day
Anthony

* not sure if compost would need charcoal's help.

We check health by the number of branchlets and leaves a tree
can hold.

Down to 3 mm soil on test trees.

Ever read at ---- Garden Myths ?
Thank You Anthony! Yes, can Link to newer Garden Myths location. Rodale's the Man! So you have to have a mix that prevents Ficus from getting too big. Go ahead, rub it in.
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,388
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
@DirkvanDreven .

Dirk,

the idea was to get the ball rolling. Share and let others make comments.

Actually, the idea before was to either take the plant out of the porous
pottery and bury outdoors / place in a shelter / or bury pot and tree , cover
with leaves for heat retention when winter came.

It's in the books. but folk behave differently today.

We use porous pottery for the J.B.pine seedlings to handle our six months
of 15 cm to 23 cm rain. [ See Bonsai Today on growing the J.B.pines , the
pots shown, Japan is a zone 7 ] didn't loose any.

It was not what works in the Caribean, but for someone to leave a second
soil recipe and perhaps help out Forsoothe.

Frpm time to time I will do this to try and get the Topic off of soil
wars and onto shared experiences.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,388
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
@Smoke

Al could you help out, The title for the topic on oldest trees
[ from aeed or other]
Thank you.
Anthony
 

parhamr

Omono
Messages
1,767
Reaction score
6,213
Location
Portland, OR
USDA Zone
8
See Bonsai Today on growing the J.B.pines , the
pots shown, Japan is a zone 7
Those round red Japanese pots look like porous terra-cotta but are actually high fired stoneware.

Jonas Dupuich has previously imported them to America by filling the remaining space in a shipping container. I have only one of that type of pot and can confirm they’re not porous.
 

BonsaiNaga13

Chumono
Messages
534
Reaction score
432
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
USDA Zone
6b
So this has been on my mind since I got deeper into bonsai. As far as root growth goes; what is the pluses and minuses of normal soil vs bonsai soil when training in regards to roots? Normal soil has the benefit of more available nutrients and water retention whereas bonsai soil is more porous I THINK would encourage root growth to “find” the water. Any thoughts?
I dont know about plus and minuses but I've been staring seeds in bonsai soil and potting soil and mine growin in bonsai soil always grow faster and better. If I start my seeds indoors gnats eat the roots of the potting soil plants and they end up dying but they cant nest in the bonsai soil. I cant over water with bonsai soil and my plants that like moisture like bald Cypress I might mix some potting mix in too
 
Messages
86
Reaction score
435
Location
Old Lyme CT.
Soil discussions create fractures in our community as Vance stated earlier. Why do we do this. Not just here but everywhere? Everyone should use what works best for you in your situation and climate. Experiment, play around with different media until you find “your mix”, boonmix isn’t rightvfor everyone, organic mixes may be good in prebonsai grouout situations, etc etc. as was stated earlier there is no one definitive answer, we find the answer through trials not arguments,,,,,disclaimer: I have spent many wasted hours in the past arguing online about this
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,388
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
@M. Frary .

Gogeerah, in the early days of IBC, many used that soil mix
on your side.

As time went by, you started seeing newer folk complaining about weight,
back problems and so on. Wanting to grow say 2 foot or so Bonsai.
It got really different when IBC offered images as a feature.
Out went the thinkers and in came the show-ers.

Or as forums go, the builders, the maintainers and lastly the users.

I am sorry Jim Lewis died, he could have explained it more correctly.

We normally average trees in the 12 to 15 inch height range, so
pot plus soil, is not a weight factor. Still one hand or two hand with
no bacl strain, and leaves at this size - [ ]

But are we not supposed to be helping Forsooth with soil mixes
and helping him, mature his designs.
Pushing his designs to the max to see how well his soil mix holds
out.
After all isn't that what all of this is really about - His Advanced Designs?
Good Day
Mottie
 

leatherback

The Treedeemer
Messages
13,939
Reaction score
26,881
Location
Northern Germany
USDA Zone
7
But are we not supposed to be helping Forsooth with soil mixes
and helping him, mature his designs.
Pushing his designs to the max to see how well his soil mix holds
out.
After all isn't that what all of this is really about - His Advanced Designs?
I think you are 100% right here Anthony. But, as posted in another thread on the nut.. You cannot teach or help, if someone is not open to it.
 

Forsoothe!

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,878
Reaction score
9,248
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
6b
Where have you ever seen me lording purchased trees as my own?
Really, pulling arguments out of thin air here mate.
You are criticizing my trees as unworthy. Ipso facto, you must have trees of a higher order. I have been a serious gardener for 40-odd years and I know the ins and outs of growing things in situ and in pots. Ramification is a function of yearly growth cycles which is limited to about two subdivisions per year, if you're pushing it. The trees that are highly regarded, but boarder-line too ramified take years and years and years to create. You can't make a baby in a month by getting nine women pregnant. I've said I have been at this for 20 years. The first five years of anyone's learning curve is marginally wasted, learning the basics. From there, you can begin the process of refining trees. I am proud of my trees that are ~15 in training, and people like you either have trees like mine or shoot off your mouth because you have purchased trees that were started and refined by someone else. You're bullshitting an old bullshitter. Show me your trees from scratch.
 

leatherback

The Treedeemer
Messages
13,939
Reaction score
26,881
Location
Northern Germany
USDA Zone
7
Funny to flip this around. Yet I am NOT the person claiming to have invented the best thing since sliced bread. Tjhe point being.. If you c;aim that your method is much better than what thers are doing. And on top of that, telling off those who HAVE shown to know what they do with regards to trees, the burden of prove is on your side.

If you reread the thread, I never said your trees are unworthy. I did however say that they do not compare to the trees of some of those posting in this thread. Whether or not my trees, home grown or bought, are better than your does not matter the slightest.
 

coh

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,781
Reaction score
6,822
Location
Rochester, NY
USDA Zone
6
I've said I have been at this for 20 years. The first five years of anyone's learning curve is marginally wasted, learning the basics.
This seems accurate, at least based on my experience. I've been at this now for 7 or 8 years. In the early stages I spent a lot of time figuring out some of the basics (watering, fertilizing, etc) but
also spent too much time worrying about what others would think about my trees. I got so worried about making "mistakes" that I was afraid to do anything to some of my trees. As a result
trees never really progressed in terms of styling. Ironically, it has been some of the arguments here at bonsainut that have helped me realize that it doesn't really matter what others think.
I'm doing this for me. I don't care if I ever have a tree worthy of the National Exhibition and am not even really motivated to show trees at the local club show. Maybe that will change, we'll
see. I'm just trying to enjoy the process while producing trees that look like what I think they should look like.

Thanks for posting your trees. Regardless of what anyone else says, they are yours, warts and all. They look healthy so obviously what you are doing is working for you.
 

barguy8194

Yamadori
Messages
75
Reaction score
54
Location
New Hampshire (White Mountains)
USDA Zone
4
Wow.

I want to establish this right off: I got interested in bonsai a couple years ago but never tried anything. I started researching in depth sometime around December, and found my way here around January. I’m excited for my first spring season as a budding bonsaist, so I can get a couple trees to start working on.

What I’m mean to say by that is, I have no idea what I’m doing, yet. I have one tree that I haven’t started work on yet because it’s still winter here and it’s dormant nursery material; so in general, I have no intention of putting any “advice” here because I’m here solely to ask questions and to learn from the experts, for at least a couple more years.

Now, one of the first things I ever read about the art of bonsai is that soil is likely the most contentious, heavily debated, and divisive topics of all.

Would you all like to know the one thing I think even an inexperienced newbie like me can say for certain, after reading this thread?

I believe that to be 100%, without argument, positively, and definitively true.
 
Top Bottom