JM Cultivar ID

Tidal Bonsai

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Hello Nuts!

I need some help identifying this JM cultivar. It was sourced from Hopewell Nursery in NJ, and seems to be grafted (but the graft looks very good!). It was simple marked Acer Palmatum, but it definitely is not the standard variety.

These are the pictures from the fall.
 

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Tidal Bonsai

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These are pictures from the spring
 

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BobbyLane

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Hello Nuts!

I need some help identifying this JM cultivar. It was sourced from Hopewell Nursery in NJ, and seems to be grafted (but the graft looks very good!). It was simple marked Acer Palmatum, but it definitely is not the standard variety.

These are the pictures from the fall.

thats a good trunk aint it. what determines it not being the standard JM variety? what is the standard JM variety?
from what ive observed so far, my little time working with japanese maples.....the bark on that looks a little more interesting than a standard acer palmatum, in the nurseries ive been to ive seen some of the dwarf yatasuba varieties with bark like the above.
the standard acer variety opens in spring with a red tinge to the leaves before reverting to green through summer, then some red tinges through autumn. someone correct me if wrong
 

Tidal Bonsai

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I was thinking it might be Shindeshojo, based on what I saw on the website, but I am not sure. It is very old, so they may have had different different cultivars back then.
 

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D

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what a trunk! if you can, please do share a 'front' pic of the tree!

my vote would be (shin) deshojo given the color and the characteristically longer central lobe. but i have to say i've never seen a deshojo with a trunk quite like that, even among those grown for landscape! Do you have any idea how old it is or where it's from?
 

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I was thinking it might be Shindeshojo, based on what I saw on the website, but I am not sure. It is very old, so they may have had different different cultivars back then.

ah i see, so the character of this bark is more an age thing, rather than a characteristic of the cultivar.
 

Tidal Bonsai

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From what I understand, standard JM has 5 points and red on the tips in the spring. From Matt O.

Standard Japanese maple. No special cultivar. Red leaves (last pics) in the fall and spring. Green leaves in the summer with a tinge of red.”

These leaves seem to have 7 points, and no red tips and the fall color is much lighter. The leaves also seem to be a more slender shape.
 

BobbyLane

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From what I understand, standard JM has 5 points and red on the tips in the spring. From Matt O.

Standard Japanese maple. No special cultivar. Red leaves (last pics) in the fall and spring. Green leaves in the summer with a tinge of red.”

These leaves seem to have 7 points, and no red tips and the fall color is much lighter. The leaves also seem to be a more slender shape.

have a query, is the standard palmatum just mountain maple in others words or is that different again? sorry to veer off track
 
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is the standard palmatum just mountain maple in others words or is that different again?

within the category of 'standard acer palmatum' there is incredible variability in my experience. What is standard at one nursery, may not look exactly like what is standard at another nursery (it would be impossible to list all of the factors that lead to this). I think most people just say 'standard' to refer to a range of 'neutral' non-cultivar-ish palmatums. it's a grey zone for sure.
 

BobbyLane

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within the category of 'standard acer palmatum' there is incredible variability in my experience. What is standard at one nursery, may not look exactly like what is standard at another nursery (it would be impossible to list all of the factors that lead to this). I think most people just say 'standard' to refer to a range of 'neutral' non-cultivar-ish palmatums. it's a grey zone for sure.

cheers buddy, say no more:cool:
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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'Shindeshojo' is certainly a possibility. There are thousands of named JM cultivars and thousands of more seedlings with no registered name but differences from the classic ''average JM''. Not having a label, breaks the provenance of the tree. This is no more valuable than a pedigree dog that lost its papers. No matter what, a paperless pedigree dog is worth no more than the mutt at the animal shelter.

You can guess, but you need 4 seasons of photos for comparison. Spring leaves, and your observations on length of points, number of points and colors is excellent. Summer foliage especially the degree of fading of the spring colors. Autumn color. Winter color of young twigs, bark of older trunks and branches, and the color of the flowers in spring, and whether flowers hang below their branch or curve up above the branch they come off of. Once you have this list of traits. Compare it to the list of cultivars the source nursery is known to have had over the age of the tree, and consult a book like Vertree's, to get the fine details on what traits each cultivar has. You can narrow down the likely hood. But without a provenance, you really can not say with certainly what the cultivar name is.

And the last complication. Seedlings from named cultivars, can not be labelled as that cultivar, because a seedling is always a genetic re-assortment of both the pollen and the seed parent. In the case of a self fertilized seedling, it is still a reassortment of its seed parent's genetics. It may resemble its parent in a number of features, but will always differ in one trait or another. In which case it can only be named Acer palmatum. Period, no qualifiers. Unless one were to register the seedling as a named cultivar. Which is only worth while if one were going to propagate and sell the tree.

SO, yes it might be 'Shindeshojo' it might be a random seedling. Hard to say.

Provenance, or name, does not change the beauty of this tree. It is a wonderful looking maple. It should become a beautiful bonsai.
 

AlainK

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'Deshojo', Shindeshojo', or any of the same family seems to be right.

When leafing out, my Deshojo has dark red leaves, very similar to yours. Last week :

acerp-deshojo_170401a.jpg

They look even darker when they have not fully developped, but take a bright red colour later, before turning to green or bronze-green in mid-summer. Today :

acerp-deshojo_190410a.jpg
 

AlainK

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I forgot to say that of course, depending on the soil, how you feed it or not, and the amount of sun it gets, the colours can be slightly different.

And by the way, very nice tree. It's true that the graft (I also think there's one) is very neatly done.
 
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It's true that the graft (I also think there's one) is very neatly done.

you're seeing the graft right by the nebari? where his finger is in the very first picture?
 

Tidal Bonsai

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SO, yes it might be 'Shindeshojo' it might be a random seedling. Hard to say.

Provenance, or name, does not change the beauty of this tree. It is a wonderful looking maple. It should become a beautiful bonsai.

I totally understand! The quality will come from the character of the bonsai, not necessarily genetics.
 

AlainK

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it might be a random seedling.

Could be, but I don't think it is : if it's grafted, it must be a cultivar.

But it's hard to say if it's grafted or not, tough another picture shows a difference in diameter that is often the sign of a graft :

4c849255-e447-4a0b-9ec0-ad170623337a-jpeg.236653


Anyway, beautiful colours :cool:
 
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