Japanese Black Pine "Yatsubusa" pruning

James W. · May 10, 2019

I purchased this 3 yr old graft from Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks. (Nice healthy tree, thank you, Brent)
I repotted into my bonsai mix and it is growing well.
As is typical (I understand) for this variety of dwarf JBP, it thinks it is a mugo pine with a wad of branches all coming out from the same spot. I intend to grow this for several years before getting serious about styling it and want to develop a bit of a trunk. I understand that this tree will have special challenges, maybe not an ideal choice for bonsai.
The questions are:
When can I prune out superfluous branches?
How many can I remove at a time?
Do I need to leave stubs?
Do I need to reduce branches before removing them to preserve life lines?
I am intending on using sacrifice branches, will this a good method for a dwarf variety?
Pictures: as received, current and close up

Adair M · May 10, 2019

It’s tiny. It needs to grow.

A lot of the choices you have are dependent upon how large you want this tree to be.

You do want to avoid reverse taper. That occurs at the internodes where whorles of branches are allowed to grow, and where the collars at the base of each branch swell. Once it occurs, there’s not an easy way to fix it. So, since you have it while it’s young, you can prevent it from getting started. By reducing redundant branches.

In an ideal world, each internode consists of a single branch, and a continuation of the trunk line. So, that means reducing every internode junction down to two. That’s probably too harsh at this point, but you should think about choosing which branch will be the future trunk line, the primary branch, etc for each node. You can keep an extra beach at each node as a “back branch”. But all the zillion little sucker branches aren’t useful, they only add to making a knob. I’d remove them.

When selecting branches, remember to try to have your internodes decrease in length as you work your way taller, and out. You don’t want a couple short internodes, and then a long one. You lose the perspective.

James W. · May 10, 2019

Adair M said:
It’s tiny. It needs to grow.

A lot of the choices you have are dependent upon how large you want this tree to be.

You do want to avoid reverse taper. That occurs at the internodes where whorles of branches are allowed to grow, and where the collars at the base of each branch swell. Once it occurs, there’s not an easy way to fix it. So, since you have it while it’s young, you can prevent it from getting started. By reducing redundant branches.

In an ideal world, each internode consists of a single branch, and a continuation of the trunk line. So, that means reducing every internode junction down to two. That’s probably too harsh at this point, but you should think about choosing which branch will be the future trunk line, the primary branch, etc for each node. You can keep an extra beach at each node as a “back branch”. But all the zillion little sucker branches aren’t useful, they only add to making a knob. I’d remove them.

When selecting branches, remember to try to have your internodes decrease in length as you work your way taller, and out. You don’t want a couple short internodes, and then a long one. You lose the perspective.

Thank you, Adair
Yes, it is tiny, but I think I need to get control sooner rather than later.
I am hoping for a tree about 12" tall, so my first branch is going to be about 4" up. That first whorl (12 or 15 branches!) needs to be reduced to the future trunk and a sacrifice. Then the next whorl up the trunk will need to be left with the future trunk, the future 1st branch and the future sacrifice. That much pruning will remove 1/2 to 3/4 of the foliage. Can I reduce this tree by that much in one go? (OK, I re-read your reply. How harsh should I be?) And can I do it this evening when I get home? Do I need to leave stubs or can I prune branches off flush?
I'm sorry, too many question.

How about if I go home and prune off some of that 1st whorl then take pictures and post them tomorrow? Then you can say "OMG, you f***ing killed it!" or maybe "Don't be such a wimp, keep chopping!"

MrFancyPlants · May 10, 2019

I think you should set up a poll with only those two options:”
1. "OMG, you f***ing killed it!"
2."Don't be such a wimp, keep chopping!"”

Seriously, starting with the first whirl sounds like a plan. You don’t have to take all the extraneous branches off at once. Take a few now and a few next month. Be sure to keep an eye out for potential sacrifice branches so that you can thicken the trunk and control the growth at the same time.

Adair M · May 10, 2019

Bear in mind that often the “trunk” is the sacrifice “branch”, and a “branch” becomes the next “trunk” line.

Also...

A sacrifice doesn’t really do anything until it’s the tallest part of the tree. A long horizontal branch really doesn’t thicken the trunk below it. It does “some”, but not as much as if it were wired (or staked) up so that it’s the tallest part. Somehow, the tree can determine what is the highest part is, and it will direct most of its growing efforts to that tallest part. When it does so, it builds more tissue to support that tallest part. And so, fattens the sacrifice and the trunk down below it.

Meanwhile...

Your tree is so little, anything drastic would set it back. The foliage is food, or rather, food factories. If you remove too much, it won’t grow because it’s starved.

Judicious thinning is better.

No hacking or chopping!

James W. · May 10, 2019

Here is what I did. It is not nearly as cluttered as I was recalling this morning. And tiny.
Future trunk is marked with yarn. Current trunk is sacrifice. A couple more branches at that junction need to come off.
It has a LOT of growing to do now.

Shibui · May 11, 2019

Don't make too many firm plans now.

James W. said:
It has a LOT of growing to do now.

Things will look way different when it has grown and thickened a bit so you may need to reassess.
Grow pines but ensure there is growth to cut back to when you finally decide to reduce the tree. Some areas may need to be pruned occasionally to have new buds and shoots in the right areas.

James W. · Oct 19, 2019

This grew nicely this summer. Should I remove more of the extra branches at that 1st whorl now? It looks like every branch tip has 10 buds, should I do anything about that right now? (I need to go read my BP book again)

Shibui · Oct 20, 2019

Yatsubusa needs different treatment to ordinary black pine. As you have noticed shoots come in groups rather than just 1 or 2 at each growing point. I believe Yatsubusa means many buds. Maintaining yatsubusa is usually more about thinning the multi shoots than trying to encourage more buds.
Extra growth will give extra thickness but you will need to be careful that multi shoots do not cause swelling. I would probably be reducing the number of shoots and branches at all forks sooner rather than later. A thinner tree with good taper is far better than a fat tree with ugly swollen areas IMHO.
Use your pruning to start to balance the strength through the tree. Take off strong shoots in stronger areas like near the top leaving the smaller ones. In weaker areas reverse that and get rid of some smaller, weak shoots.

sorce · Oct 20, 2019

It's ok to leave as many branches as possible on one side of a whorl..3-5.
Where just 2 opposite each other will become a quicker problem and leave you less health.

What done is done .....
But in the future...
I would have kept this branch in green.

Since you can cut back to it in the future and still have in scale branches.
You could have left that past the yellow to grow for health another year, maybe even 2, and that branch would still be useable in a final design.

Remember your final branching won't be built till later, so you are essentially just trying to keep them alive, but as small as possible.

Sorce

James W. · Oct 20, 2019

sorce said:
It's ok to leave as many branches as possible on one side of a whorl..3-5.
Where just 2 opposite each other will become a quicker problem and leave you less health.

What done is done .....
But in the future...
I would have kept this branch in green.View attachment 267351
Since you can cut back to it in the future and still have in scale branches.
You could have left that past the yellow to grow for health another year, maybe even 2, and that branch would still be useable in a final design.

Remember your final branching won't be built till later, so you are essentially just trying to keep them alive, but as small as possible.

Sorce

Thank you. My plan at this time is to grow this into a bigger tree, 6" - 12" finished height. Which means 1" - 2" trunk diameter. And a 1st branch 2" - 4" up, which is somewhere in the top half of this tree. I think that I need to reduce this 1st whorl to a future trunk, the sacrifice branch and a back up branch. My question is in two parts:
1. I pruned this tree in May, can I safely remove another 1/3 of the tree right now or should I wait?
2. Can or should I remove buds (like a mugo) or should I wait and prune candles in spring?

sorce · Oct 20, 2019

I don't have a direct answer for this.

Practicing PPB or keeping potential problems at bay, should be excersized.
If what you can read on the trees past says those buds will cause problems, remove them before they are a problem.

IMO. Bud removal is always safe, except maybe in spring where bleeding may sap energy.

Be mindful of the energy that is stored that needs to go somewhere too though.
Remaining buds get that energy, which will result in long necks which may not be desirable. But they may not effect design, and therefore may not matter.

The tree looks healthy enough to cut.

But I think there are other questions to have answered to make appropriate cuts.

Sorce

James W. · Oct 20, 2019

sorce said:
I don't have a direct answer for this.

Practicing PPB or keeping potential problems at bay, should be excersized.
If what you can read on the trees past says those buds will cause problems, remove them before they are a problem.

IMO. Bud removal is always safe, except maybe in spring where bleeding may sap energy.

Be mindful of the energy that is stored that needs to go somewhere too though.
Remaining buds get that energy, which will result in long necks which may not be desirable. But they may not effect design, and therefore may not matter.

The tree looks healthy enough to cut.

But I think there are other questions to have answered to make appropriate cuts.

Sorce

Thank you

sorce · Oct 20, 2019

For instance....

That green circled branch may have been a better sacrifice, as it points down.
The future Jin could match the rest of the old tree image of pointing down.

An upward facing jin will look out of place.

Then again. Jin is not a feature of JBP.
So you may wish to just heal the scar.
In which case, what scar is easiest to heal?

Mmmmmmore questions!

Sorce

sorce · Oct 20, 2019

James W. said:
Thank you

Absolutely, I appreciate the opportunity to think.
Especially excited since you seem ok with a long path on a great little tree!

Stay the course!

Thank YOU!

Sorce

Leo in N E Illinois · Oct 20, 2019

I would thin whorls to 3 or 4 branches. Leave for a year or two, then each year remove one more until you are down to branch and the continuation of the trunk. But leave choices for future styling at first. Year(s) later you reduce the choices.

James W. · Oct 20, 2019

Leo in N E Illinois said:
I would thin whorls to 3 or 4 branches. Leave for a year or two, then each year remove one more until you are down to branch and the continuation of the trunk. But leave choices for future styling at first. Year(s) later you reduce the choices.

Thank you
And I found some excellent articles by @EricSchader on Phutu

I know what I want for Christmas, a workshop!

Daniel son STL · Oct 20, 2019

Adair M said:
Bear in mind that often the “trunk” is the sacrifice “branch”, and a “branch” becomes the next “trunk” line.

Also...

A sacrifice doesn’t really do anything until it’s the tallest part of the tree. A long horizontal branch really doesn’t thicken the trunk below it. It does “some”, but not as much as if it were wired (or staked) up so that it’s the tallest part. Somehow, the tree can determine what is the highest part is, and it will direct most of its growing efforts to that tallest part. When it does so, it builds more tissue to support that tallest part. And so, fattens the sacrifice and the trunk down below it.

Meanwhile...

Your tree is so little, anything drastic would set it back. The foliage is food, or rather, food factories. If you remove too much, it won’t grow because it’s starved.

Judicious thinning is better.

No hacking or chopping!

This is really good info as usual Adair!
I will add, (nothing crucial) I believe the tree knows the tallest part of itself bc the tallest part usually gets the most sun light.

garywood · Oct 20, 2019

James, one of the biggest problems with yatasbusa is the swelling, faster thickening, of yatsabusa in comparison to the rootstock. There is potential for bulging or reverse taper at the graft union. A very low graft helps with this. Keeping more than a single extension close to the graft will compound the difference in growth rates.

James W. · Oct 20, 2019

garywood said:
James, one of the biggest problems with yatasbusa is the swelling, faster thickening, of yatsabusa in comparison to the rootstock. There is potential for bulging or reverse taper at the graft union. A very low graft helps with this. Keeping more than a single extension close to the graft will compound the difference in growth rates.

I got this tree from Brent of Evergreen Gardenworks. He provides trees with excellent, low grafts. This one is less than 1/2" from the ground. I have kind of pondered the idea of a ground layer or tourniquet layer some day. Not any time soon, it will have to become a problem before I try to solve it. I probably will plant it a little deeper next time I pot up.

Japanese Black Pine "Yatsubusa" pruning

Chumono

Pinus Envy

Chumono

Omono

Pinus Envy

Chumono

Imperial Masterpiece

Chumono

Imperial Masterpiece

Nonsense Rascal

Chumono

Nonsense Rascal

Chumono

Nonsense Rascal

Nonsense Rascal

The Professor

Chumono

Shohin

Chumono

Chumono

Similar threads