Pinus Nigra Hornibrookianna

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Well since the pine’s candles are starting to move I got busy today and built some boxes—sort of an amalgam of your design and mine. I kept the screen and added the feet and handholds. I initially made three since I had the saw set up—one 18” sq and two 24” sq. Then I took a look at them and decided there is no way I would ever be able to move one of those 24” devils let alone pick it up, so I pulled out the screws and cut them down to 18” too! Tomorrow I need to sift some more pumice, hadite, and composted bark, then I’ll be ready for the real work. The two extra will be used for the yews in my neighbor’s yard that he wants gone in the next couple months. I’m really looking forward to that job!
Be sure and post the progress. Looking forward to it.
 

Ali Raza

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Your approach is a bit different from the one i chose. I prefer to retain more foliage, keep the tree stronger and vigorous for development. At the same time opening up the interior for development. I like to think of it as a slower approach for a faster result. My approach focuses on developing and maintaining a very healthy root system. I use a very free draining medium particle substrate for pines. As the basis for future development. Here are the pictures to illustrate the subtle difference. The new growth is easy to identify. When i removed the excess foliage i did so in 3 stages This tree was an overgrown shrub obtained from a nursery in march of this year. 2018. I expect to see considerable new interior budding next season. One approach is to always cut back to a pair of needle clumps if possible. Another approach is to reduce the size of needles to allow light into the interior. Another method involves reducing the number of needle pairs rather than removing the whole thing. Each of these approach allows light into the interior at the same time as retaining more foliage for photosynthesis to support new growth.
Please note: this is an experimental nursery tree to learn how this variety responds. I am particularly interested in the color and needle length of this variety.
river guide me with your experiment i want to give it a try for one of my pine. From your story what i infer is:-

1. Use free draining soil (Right now i changed the soil to inorganic consisting of 30% pumice, 30% crushed backed bricks, 30% chicken grit and 10% organic love to see how water drains quickly from the mixture and my pines likes it with lots of new needles) "task completed"
2. Retain more foliage (avoid cutting of new candles) " Do i cut the candles for ramification or not ?"
3. More sunlight in the pines ( Pinch more needles so it makes spaces for new buds to grow by getting more light) "Do i pinch more needles rather than cutting candles"
4. What should i do cutting candles or pinching more needles ?
Is there any thing which i am missing ?
 

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river guide me with your experiment i want to give it a try for one of my pine. From your story what i infer is:-

1. Use free draining soil (Right now i changed the soil to inorganic consisting of 30% pumice, 30% crushed backed bricks, 30% chicken grit and 10% organic love to see how water drains quickly from the mixture and my pines likes it with lots of new needles) "task completed"
2. Retain more foliage (avoid cutting of new candles) " Do i cut the candles for ramification or not ?"
3. More sunlight in the pines ( Pinch more needles so it makes spaces for new buds to grow by getting more light) "Do i pinch more needles rather than cutting candles"
4. What should i do cutting candles or pinching more needles ?
Is there any thing which i am missing ?
First to be clear- we are working with different species at different stages of development!
Second- the last picture i saw of your pine showed very little foliage to work with, you definitely do not need to let more sunlight in!
Third- I consider ramification to be the stage after primary and secondary branching is in place and the trunk has achieved its desired thickness, movement and taper.
I think you should let the tree recover and grow out.
 

Ali Raza

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First to be clear- we are working with different species at different stages of development!
Second- the last picture i saw of your pine showed very little foliage to work with, you definitely do not need to let more sunlight in!
Third- I consider ramification to be the stage after primary and secondary branching is in place and the trunk has achieved its desired thickness, movement and taper.
I think you should let the tree recover and grow out.
what about large tree with lots of needles covering the branches ? Guide me pinching needle Vs cutting candles.
 

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what about large tree with lots of needles covering the branches ? Guide me pinching needle Vs cutting candles.
Two different techniques designed for separate outcomes. Also the application of each technique varies with expected response of the particular species and the timing or application of the techniques.
Cutting candles can involve a variety of approaches as well depending on the species, wether it is multi flush or single flush. The timing will vary based on the desired outcome, the strength of the candle and overalll balance of the tree.
So the summary is that your question is best answered in a specific situation with all the relevant facts.
I would suggest you study the following terms to help put the discussion into focus.
Decandling Multi flush species!
Candle Cutting or Candle pinching Pines
Neeedle maintenance techniques for pines!
Once you have an overall sense of the reason you apply each technique , then it is important to research how the different pine species react and the timing for your particular climate.
I will send you some information on good DVD for the above. As well as a good article on Pine Development, identifying stages and planning process.
 

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what about large tree with lots of needles covering the branches ? Guide me pinching needle Vs cutting candles.
A good resource on pines is a pair of videos on YouTube by Ryan Neil. The first one is on multi-flush pines like Japanese black pines and the second one is on single flush pines like the Austrian pine. They were shot at a clinic he gave iand the audio quality is poor but he really tells how to develop and refine both types of pines. Search for Ruan Neil Lecture on Pines.

There also is a good series of videos that covers the process of managing bonsai starting in early spring and going through the growing season into winter care. It is the BSOP series on the Mirai YouTube channel. There is a quick link here under the Mirai Videos menu option at the topmof the page https://www.portlandbonsai.org/
 

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Two different techniques designed for separate outcomes. Also the application of each technique varies with expected response of the particular species and the timing or application of the techniques.
Cutting candles can involve a variety of approaches as well depending on the species, wether it is multi flush or single flush. The timing will vary based on the desired outcome, the strength of the candle and overalll balance of the tree.
So the summary is that your question is best answered in a specific situation with all the relevant facts.
I would suggest you study the following terms to help put the discussion into focus.
Decandling Multi flush species!
Candle Cutting or Candle pinching Pines
Neeedle maintenance techniques for pines!
Once you have an overall sense of the reason you apply each technique , then it is important to research how the different pine species react and the timing for your particular climate.
I will send you some information on good DVD for the above. As well as a good article on Pine Development, identifying stages and planning process.
The article i would suggest is stored on the BSSF website under Articles and Stories. Bonsai Society of San Francisco . It is written by Eric Schrader and dated 2013. Title is Care of japanese Black Pine-Stages of Development. The DVD series is by Boon and can be ordered online through the Bonsai Boon website.
These are just two suggestions and there are many sources you can turn to for relevant information.
The intent of suggesting these directions is to provide a framework for evaluating the individual pieces of information that may fit into just a small part of the overall.
Put simply, build the tree slowly from the ground up, root base, nebari,trunk,primary branches, secondary branches, foliage. ( in that order) When you have more training and experience you will be able to develop more than one aspect at the same time. Have a design plan in mind first, maintain the health and vigor of the tree at all times, stage the work to protect the vigor of the tree.
In your situation, document what you have done, when it was done and what the response was. Learn as you go to judge the health of the tree before progressing further! When in doubt, wait. A good guideline is one major process per year. For example if you do a full repot give the tree a year to recover, depending on the conditions it may take longer.
 

WNC Bonsai

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Today was one step back then two forwards. First I took the other 24” sq flat apart and cut it down to 18”, much more manageable. I then finished adding the screen wire and slats on the bottom. Then I got busy cleaning up the others. I added 2x2 feet to all and of course the handrails. After about 2 hours I was a little tired but happy with the results. After a test fit of the pine I now am not sure whether to remove 1/3 or 1/2 the lower root ball. Tomorrow I need to sift some more pumice, etc. and then should be ready to get the tree into one of the flats. Ok, enough talk, now pictures.

Here is the basic box with the feet visible.

002ADC80-B773-4F8C-92A5-B43BBD99A8C0.jpeg

I used aluminum screen in the bottom with wooden slats below to keep it from blowing out. The spacing allows lots of drainage.

79B6B859-2034-4E55-B0E3-9E97C2137051.jpeg

This angle gives a netter view of the handrails. I can see where these will be handy.

669AEA8B-CE80-46CA-9DCB-8665161E42EC.jpeg

And finally the test fit. This is in the flat made with 1x8 lumber. Easily deep enough even if I only remove 1/3 of the roots.

4F73A3EB-DB40-4DEF-993F-F1F73678B745.jpeg

Thanks for the inspiration Frank.
 

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Today was one step back then two forwards. First I took the other 24” sq flat apart and cut it down to 18”, much more manageable. I then finished adding the screen wire and slats on the bottom. Then I got busy cleaning up the others. I added 2x2 feet to all and of course the handrails. After about 2 hours I was a little tired but happy with the results. After a test fit of the pine I now am not sure whether to remove 1/3 or 1/2 the lower root ball. Tomorrow I need to sift some more pumice, etc. and then should be ready to get the tree into one of the flats. Ok, enough talk, now pictures.

Here is the basic box with the feet visible.

View attachment 229558

I used aluminum screen in the bottom with wooden slats below to keep it from blowing out. The spacing allows lots of drainage.

View attachment 229560

This angle gives a netter view of the handrails. I can see where these will be handy.

View attachment 229561

And finally the test fit. This is in the flat made with 1x8 lumber. Easily deep enough even if I only remove 1/3 of the roots.

View attachment 229562

Thanks for the inspiration Frank.

Looks like a lot of fun, not sure wether i should mention these details or not. But i will anyhow in case others benefit from the reminders.
Explore and be sure of the level and state of key nebari for this repot. Check top first for proper level of reduction if any.
Decide on rough planting angle before reduction of root ball in case it affects the decision of how to cut the bottom.
Tie in the tree carefully to ensure stability.
Enough for now, i see from some of the branch removal you already have an idea where you are going with this. It will be neat to compare notes on the trees progress. I am still waiting for the snow to melt here on the island.
 

WNC Bonsai

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Looks like a lot of fun, not sure wether i should mention these details or not. But i will anyhow in case others benefit from the reminders.
Explore and be sure of the level and state of key nebari for this repot. Check top first for proper level of reduction if any.
Decide on rough planting angle before reduction of root ball in case it affects the decision of how to cut the bottom.
Tie in the tree carefully to ensure stability.
Enough for now, i see from some of the branch removal you already have an idea where you are going with this. It will be neat to compare notes on the trees progress. I am still waiting for the snow to melt here on the island.

All good tips. When I purchased the tree I was drawn by the leaning growth habit and also tthe recurving branch. I already see several more branches to remove but I want to see what kind of back budding I get this year and that will determine which paths I follow. I already explored a bit for the nebari and found one major root about 1/4” below the surface. However there are a lot of roots in the surface so I held off on going any further until I am ready to do the repot. I plan to saw off the bottom 1/3 then if there are few roots above that then I will go further. As Ryan Neil says the energy of pines is in the roots so I don’t want to go too far too fast. More photos to come when I pull it out of the nursery pot.
 

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All good tips. When I purchased the tree I was drawn by the leaning growth habit and also tthe recurving branch. I already see several more branches to remove but I want to see what kind of back budding I get this year and that will determine which paths I follow. I already explored a bit for the nebari and found one major root about 1/4” below the surface. However there are a lot of roots in the surface so I held off on going any further until I am ready to do the repot. I plan to saw off the bottom 1/3 then if there are few roots above that then I will go further. As Ryan Neil says the energy of pines is in the roots so I don’t want to go too far too fast. More photos to come when I pull it out of the nursery pot.
Not going too far too fast is important with respect to the foliage as well. The biggest mistake i see most people make working with pines is counting on the energy in the roots and removing too much foliage. The photosynthesis occurs in the needles providing the energy to produce the roots during recovery. I think sometimes individual comments made in presentations are true but taken out of context or misinterpreted.
 

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Well this morning I finished sifting pumice, permatil (a type of hadite), and organic (composted bark) then set everything up on the tailgate of my truck. I pulled the pine out of its nursery pot and using an old pruning saw cut off the lower 1/3 as planned. After that it did not go as planned. There were roots regularly distributed in the pot but not a real congested mess like I expected. I dug for the center of the root ball hoping to be able to remove the nursery soil, mostly bark and compost, and instead turned up a massive root. After digging around it for a couple minutes I realized that removing the soil from the center was not going to happen without doing major damage to that root.

So next I went ahead and raked the loose stuff off the top and sides and looked for encircling roots. Surprisingly there really weren’t that many. I then decided that the best alternative path was an HBR so I too off the soil from the left side of the root ball. With that done and the remaining roots sticking out the sides and raked out nice and clean, I gave it a test fit in the flat. Because of the big root in the center I was not about to get it into the 5 1/2” deep one but the 7 1/2” deep one worked fine. I placed a drainage layer of large dia pumice on the bottom after running some wire around the slats for tie downs. Then I placd the tree in the flat and started working in the soil mix with my big chopstick. This comprised 50% pumice, 40% permatil, and 10% organic. Three 5 gallon bucketfuls later I had enough in there to cover the roots so I went ahead and tied it down.

I placed it in the flat a little left of center more for balance than because of the roots, it had plenty of room around the sides. I am sure I could have used a 16” or even 14” flat instead of this 18” one. I also tippd the tree up a bit which allows the apex to work better. In its leaning position it looked like it needed removing. At any rate I gave it a real good watering and then made up a gallon of Rhizotonic to pour on but just about then it started raining so I held off. No need in having it flushd out by the rain. I got this done in the nick of time. I could see the extension of the candles that had taken place overnight so any further delay might have been too late for the repot. I eased it down into a wagon so I can roll it into the garage when those 14 degree nights hit here next week. Here are a couple photos. I was too busy to do a step by step progression.

384C1314-CDA4-4F2F-871A-E7E301DF1E97.jpeg

914F4A8A-3822-4FD3-A83C-63D0984BBF54.jpeg
 
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River's Edge

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Well this morning I finished sifting pumice, permatil (a type of hadite), and organic (composted bark) then set everything up on the tailgate of my truck. I pulled the pine out of its nursery pot and using an old pruning saw cut off the lower 1/3 as planned. After that it did not go as planned. There were roots regularly distributed in the pot but not a real congested mess like I expected. I dug for the center of the root ball hoping to be able to remove the nursery soil, mostly bark and compost, and instead turned up a massive root. After digging around it for a couple minutes I realized that removing the soil from the center was not going to happen without doing major damage to that root.

So next I went ahead and raked the loose stuff off the top and sides and looked for encircling roots. Surprisingly there really weren’t that many. I then decided that the best alternative path was an HBR so I too off the soil from the left side of the root ball. With that done and the remaining roots sticking out the sides and raked out nice and clean, I gave it a test fit in the flat. Because of the big root in the center I was not about to get it into the 5 1/2” deep one but the 7 1/2” deep one worked fine. I placed a drainage layer of large dia pumice on the bottom after running some wire around the slats for tie downs. Then I placd the tree in the flat and started working in the soil mix with my big chopstick. This comprised 50% pumice, 40% permatil, and 10% organic. Three 5 gallon bucketfuls later I had enough in there to cover the roots so I went ahead and tied it down.

I placed it in the flat a little left of center more for balance than because of the roots, it had plaenty of room around the sides. I am sure I could have used a 16” or even 14” flat instead of this 18” one. I also tippd the tree up a bit which allows the apex to work better. In its leaning position it looked like it needed removing. At any rate I gave it a real good watering and then made up a gallon of Rhizotonic to pour on but just about then it started raining so I held off. No need in having it flushd out by the rain. Here are a couple photos. I was too busy to do a step by step progression.

View attachment 229659

View attachment 229661
Not surprising that the actual repot revealed the desire to adjust ones approach. Happens a lot if one is taking care to consider the long term. Looking forward to the progress reports. i will post some progress picture of mine when the growing season is well under way. Not expecting to perform any work this year.
 

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Well, I have been misting the needles on this big boy and keeping an eye on how wet the soil is and hoping all these spring rains don’t result in root rot. However the candles have all started to swell and are now up to an inch or so long so I gave it a good spray with Infuse systemic fungicide. With all this humidity I am concerned about the fungi they are very susceptible too. I have seen others in this area that are a beautiful orange after an attack. Now that it seems to be responding with growth I plan to also hit it with a good drench of systemic insecticide. We have a large variety of tree species in this area and they attract an equally large variety of insects. Next I am waiting to see what kind of backbudding all this special attention generates. Anyway here are a couple shots of those candles in action.

F9EF5900-B536-4B40-A191-38EA58CFFE5B.jpegCC5C1120-592A-422C-8A89-D21AB5336820.jpeg
 

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Ok, the little candles have morphed into bigger candles and needles are starting to push out—a lot. So how long do these little buggers get before they stop extending? At any rate I am wondering when can I expect to see new buds forming back on the branches? Does that come after I cut the candles back later this summer? I’ve got it sitting in full sun now and have been feeding it Miracle Gro and Mir Acid. I also gave it a shot of systemic insecticide (imidicloprid) and fungicide (Bonide Infuse) although it is time to give it a shot of Mancozeb or Daconil just to stave off future problems. At any rate so far it looks pretty healthy and has taken the mistreatment well. So how is yours doing?

D0B901E2-EA02-4121-8D68-DF17113197FA.jpeg
 

River's Edge

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Mine has responded nicely with too many buds and new candles to count. Recently i removed all the buds in poor locations, cut off the candles extending up and down on the branches, reduced the candles to two and cut back on length where the interior growth was strong enough to maintain the health of the branch, Some budding on bare branching and the trunk. Will let grow until fall at this point and reassess then. I will take a picture later today and post.
I am using organic fertiliser . Four tea bags, 2 tablespoons per bag, inorganic soil, plenty of water, in full sun on the bench.
 

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Mine has responded nicely with too many buds and new candles to count. Recently i removed all the buds in poor locations, cut off the candles extending up and down on the branches, reduced the candles to two and cut back on length where the interior growth was strong enough to maintain the health of the branch, Some budding on bare branching and the trunk. Will let grow until fall at this point and reassess then. I will take a picture later today and post.
I am using organic fertiliser . Four tea bags, 2 tablespoons per bag, inorganic soil, plenty of water, in full sun on the bench.

Some of the older needles are yellow from over watering during my absence of five weeks recently! One of the additional costs of travelling while keeping Bonsai.
IMG_1378.JPGIMG_1379.JPGIMG_1380.JPG
 

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river guide me with your experiment i want to give it a try for one of my pine. From your story what i infer is:-

1. Use free draining soil (Right now i changed the soil to inorganic consisting of 30% pumice, 30% crushed backed bricks, 30% chicken grit and 10% organic love to see how water drains quickly from the mixture and my pines likes it with lots of new needles) "task completed"
2. Retain more foliage (avoid cutting of new candles) " Do i cut the candles for ramification or not ?"
3. More sunlight in the pines ( Pinch more needles so it makes spaces for new buds to grow by getting more light) "Do i pinch more needles rather than cutting candles"
4. What should i do cutting candles or pinching more needles ?
Is there any thing which i am missing ?

Ali; Believing your tree is Chir pine is tree that grows epicormic(out of trunk/older bark)buds/sprouts easily. Also barks up quick. Your tree appears covered with immature needles likely shocked from repotting or pruning. Should have long thin needles believe 3 in fascicle. Feed well, lots of sun watch for new sprouts many places. Once many branches grow can begin selection for keepers and if tree does as suspected can cut back branch past bud(but suggest keeping needles to keep traffic going in limb)then new buds should grow. Please experiment on unneeded branch first;). Interested to see this tree develop:cool:.
 

Ali Raza

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@Potawatomi13 for your sincere advice. I am obliged to you. I will post the pictures. I do have at least 10 chir pine. I do experiment and study them. Not sure this specie have been tried as bonsai due to long needles and growing in area where bonsai is not common in practice.
There is one thing i want to ask to you. Few week ago, strong wind knocked up my afghan pine tree. It was pretty large tree collected from wild and repotted in February this year. The tree fell down cracking the pot and spilling the soil out of it. I had to repot it. The buds are growing long green and well. But during re-potting, I didn,t see any root development. After the potting, the growth on pine stumbled. New buds on lower branches begins to dry. I guess tree loses overall growth vigor.

What should I do to get it back on track ?
Why roots didn't developed in well draining soil ?
 

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@Potawatomi13 for your sincere advice. I am obliged to you. I will post the pictures. I do have at least 10 chir pine. I do experiment and study them. Not sure this specie have been tried as bonsai due to long needles and growing in area where bonsai is not common in practice.
There is one thing i want to ask to you. Few week ago, strong wind knocked up my afghan pine tree. It was pretty large tree collected from wild and repotted in February this year. The tree fell down cracking the pot and spilling the soil out of it. I had to repot it. The buds are growing long green and well. But during re-potting, I didn,t see any root development. After the potting, the growth on pine stumbled. New buds on lower branches begins to dry. I guess tree loses overall growth vigor.

What should I do to get it back on track ?
Why roots didn't developed in well draining soil ?
Ali- could you please start a thread on your species. That may avoid confusion and mixed responses, this thread is for pinus niger hornibrookianna.
 
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