Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

To make an instructional system, you'd first have to define the art itself.
I believe that's where the issue starts; some people make bonsai, some people make trees, some people don't. To the outside world, that's still bonsai.

It's an art form declining in Japan, and having an identity crisis in the rest of the world.

I've been asked to teach at the university, just some practicals that I'm absolutely not qualified to teach. But the professors and my colleagues gave me a 334 page instruction manual. What I'm going to teach is clearly defined, it's not a class defined by methods; the methods are universal worldwide. It's not a class defined by opinion; it's scientifically as accurate as possible. It's not a class defined by emotion, or impression; it's follow the protocol.
There is wrong and right: you either get the information, do the work, or you don't. It can be quantified.

What would I like to learn when I go and be an apprentice? I'd like to learn stuff I can find online as well. I'm already a plant scientist(trademark). I turned one single cell into an entire citrus plant - and did the same for thousands of vegetables. I know horticulture, I know agriculture, I know arts, I know design. I know that some people can't be convinced about my artistic views. I know that some people will be blown away by them. I also know that it's hard to judge bonsai if you're not exposed to great material for long enough. But the thing with being exposed to certain material during an apprenticeship is that it's always a school, a certain view from a teacher/master. This leads me to ask myself: who am I doing bonsai for?
I just want some cool trees. I own roughly 200 raw and crappy trees. They're the worst you can imagine, but they're totally mine. I get to judge them from my point of view. I don't have to show the world, I don't have to live up to certain standards other people have set for me. And I like it that way.

But I honestly believe that instructions for bonsai other than practical methods, are useless unless there's a clear and defined archetype. Just grab a few of those bonsai books, they all tell you the same thing more or less, but none of them is perfectly clear. We either have to accept that and acknowledge that it comes down to freedom of expression, or fight it and lay down some solid baselines. As long as the identity crisis continues, I think the teachers will have that same crisis.

sorce said:

What IS the Bonsai Instructional System?

If we consider 3 things and place a value on them, horticulture, design, and personality, no teachers will end up with the same values, and I'm talking across the board, from gents as yourself, to @B-rad in GR who's posting videos.

This is all valuable.

However, we lack the discipline to apply any knowledge correctly in our own gardens, due to the intricacies that begin with identifying vigor, and end in a "thousand years", or beyond our lifetime.

There are no courses teaching this.

It can't be taught in today society.

Righteously, a pro will stay in his garden.
A club should send a member to apprentice.
That is where the discipline comes from.

Structure.

Currently, too many chiefs.

.....


Just of demos.

I learned more watching a @Walter Pall video of...



In a way, it is better because it is faster, like a 2minute video, you know, info info info...

Throw a towel over a tree's branch, see why the cut makes it better, move on.

He did many trees, more valuable info in one hour than "styling a tree", which, few people have material the same as, where, going thru many trees, you are sure to find more insight to how you may treat one of your actual trees.

.......

Final thoughts.

It's an up Mt. Fuji battle.

With Tanuki balls on your chin.

Seriously....

The Shows should be the final straw. We should be paying professionals everywhere to set up High Quality show.

If it's 3 displays, let it be small, but perfect.

By simply having the excellence displayed to strive for, more will achieve it.

Any other "Show", be it flower, dog, fish, boat, reptile, etc...
You don't see sub par shit.

Only at bonsai shows.

Sorce

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Coming from a beginner - I feel incredibly lucky that so much is available to me during my early years versus say, ten years ago. This site alone, while not offering an absolute/agreed upon approach (never agreed upon? ), is my single most impactful resource for acclimating to bonsai.

What is difficult as noted by others is to identify which teaching is the correct one - is it Ryan? Is it Peter Chan? Walter? @sorce ?

I’m attending my local club in February for the first time. It seems to me (without even having attended yet) that these local touch-points could serve as a cohesive connection to legitimate best practices - adopt a standard set of educational resources and or experts to reach out to / attend workshops from (whether that requires travel / funds or not - up to the aspiring bonsai amateur to seek them out, yes, barriers to this).

In my peasant-like amateur videos I try to repeatedly explain that I am a beginner on my journey and illustrate mistakes, share what I’ve learned and from where, and point folks in the direction of what I have gathered and found to be “legitimate” ... but even that is subjective.

The trees don’t lie in my opinion... I see the material many of you work on and the progressions and vision, and I immediately develop respect/see you as someone I must learn from given the results. Are you folks the Harvard education? Maybe not. Maybe a community college degree or state university. Maybe ITT technical institute... but I have to be happy that I have someone available and willing to share what they’ve learned even if it isn’t Harvard.
That is my version of seeing ‘best practice’ but it is a scattered and saturated approach to be sure.

Wu Yee Sun says correctly, get an education before doing Bonsai.

An apprentice is someone who sees the work and asks can I come
back. May I water or try repotting.
Can be any age.
But see first line.

A Fine Artist, studies nature, may make pottery and tools, but it will
be a hobby.
Because the canvas is based on Imaginative Design, always new, and, has to
finished - sold.
Bonsai out grows the design, less chance of selling, has to be watered.

Be smart treat as hobby.

Bonsai are the playthings of the wealthy.
Good Day
Anthony

jimib said:

I enjoyed the study group a great deal. When I was invited I told my wife I was up in the air about it. For that money I can buy one or two nice trees. My wife looked at me and said “and do what, kill them like the others? Get in the study group”. I learned a tremendous amount, not just about trees but about pots and displaying bonsai as well.

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Don't let her get away

coltranem said:

Don't let her get away

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She’s awesome. We love going to Asheville for vacation. She started planning it around the show there.

B-rad in GR said:

What is difficult as noted by others is to identify which teaching is the correct one - is it Ryan? Is it Peter Chan? Walter? @sorce ?

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I just chose whichever I agree with. It’s perfect, look around for different opinions long enough and you can just about always be right.

B-rad in GR said:

What is difficult as noted by others is to identify which teaching is the correct one - is it Ryan? Is it Peter Chan? Walter? @sorce ?

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Q: Are their trees better than mine?

If no, then I wouldnt put much weight in their knowledge as related to my own. If yes, then there is knowledge I can learn from them and I take notice. Its not that you have to pick one or the other to use as your teacher. See what all of them do, and then contemplate which works best for you. Learn the "why", not just the "how", so you can integrate many different techniques into one.

penumbra said:

And conversely, someone with few developed skills and limited knowledge can be fantastic at presenting.

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Heh, absolutely. My teacher has been doing bonsai for 40+ years. We did one joint presentation together and afterwards he was like, "damn you're good at that!". I've only been doing bonsai for going on 3 years but I've not only been trained as an instructor but I'm also a "train the trainer" and teach people how to teach. Last year I did that intro to bonsai presentation I posted the powerpoint for the other day at a home & garden show. This year they've asked me to do two presentations. So yeah, limited knowledge but pretty good at getting it across.

Bonsai_Bentley said:

The pinnacle shows should absolutely be super selective. Something like the Artisan's Cup that Ryan Neil organized. Shows for the absolute top of the craft. However, in order for the community to grow there has to be a pro-am level. Something ppl can aspire to as they build upon their skills. Somewhere that they can get constructive criticism and build upon that. Local clubs (I suspect as I don't have access to one) aren't enough.

If shows were strictly for the upmost best examples ppl would quit bonsai.

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I agree. I've made the argument more than once that there is room in this hobby for the pro-golfer all the way down to the mini-golfer. When I joined the show committee for my club I instituted a "pre-bonsai" display to show trees in progress. I had two goals: 1)to show people trees that weren't perfect to lower the barrier to getting involved (seeing a finished tree and be like "oh I could never do that" compared to seeing a tree in training and say "hey, I can do that!) and 2) to provide an opportunity to those of us who are new to the hobby to be able to show our trees that don't "belong" in the main show. It is important to get people involved in showing their stuff!

That display was a huge hit with members and show attendees.

Josh88 said:

I feel the last Bonsai Society of Portland president, Lee Cheatle, had a wonderful and simple solution that should be replicated everywhere. He would begin each meeting by asking any new attendees to stand up. He would say "Look to your left, look to your right, look in front of and behind you. Every one you see here was once standing right where you are. We were all beginners once, and we are all here to answer any of your questions, so don't be afraid to reach out. We are all friends here" This statement always set a tone for every meeting not only of inclusivity in the club, but a reminder to the more experienced members to actively be inviting and open to the new members. There is a reason there are almost 400 active members in this club.

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I love that. If I'm ever in a leadership position in my club I'm going to use that!

This has been an interesting post. Like any skills there are numerous ways to learn it. The problem with bonsai unlike say playing guitar is there is less people who do it thus there are less options and some of it depends on where you live. However the options still range from being self taught to high end teachers. If you live out in the country your options for high end teachers are less.

I have only been in the hobby 3 years. I did get to meet Tyler Sherrod and Mauro Stemberger. I appreciate their willingness to travel but I know Tyler was looking forward to opening his garden and holding classes there. I totally get that. I am sure it is tough. It is their personal choice on how they want to make their living. As I get deeper into the hobby I can see myself visiting Tyler or Bjorn for a class at their site. How is it different that dropping money on any other vacation? I love to fish and have spent similar money to pay for a fishing guide when learning a new location or species I have never fished for before.

The bonsai professionals should unionize!
Seriously though, cranking out a small juniper in an hour is a waste of most club members time, from the demos ive seen.

The “future” in bonsai instruction should be in online instruction. I have found an enormous amount of value in mirai videos (less so in bonsai empire, but thats for another thread) especially when its on specific techniques like nebari development, grafting etc.

It will never replace an intensive or apprenticeship, but those two things are going to be inaccessible to the majority. The folks that want to spend the time and effort to travel to study with a professional will always be there.

For what its worth, “join a club” isnt always the best answer.

I spoke with a local professional about the bonsai society of San francisco (been thinking about joining for about 5 years) and decided to focus my energy on studying with professionals and online instruction.

I think a well developed garden/studio with onsite instruction will provide most the best bang for their buck.

Cable said:

. When I joined the show committee for my club I instituted a "pre-bonsai" display to show trees in progress. I had two goals: 1)to show people trees that weren't perfect to lower the barrier to getting involved (seeing a finished tree and be like "oh I could never do that" compared to seeing a tree in training and say "hey, I can do that!) and 2) to provide an opportunity to those of us who are new to the hobby to be able to show our trees that don't "belong" in the main show. It is important to get people involved in showing their stuff!

That display was a huge hit with members and show attendees.



I love that. If I'm ever in a leadership position in my club I'm going to use that!

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We started talking about that in my club. For both those same reasons.

A club setting is great for a lot of things but intensive training isnt one of them. I like going to be around people who share an interest, to make some friends. I get invited to do workshops which are very good for hands on learning. The clubs help maintain an interest and build a community or hub for the hobby, nothing more.

Orion_metalhead said:

Learn the "why", not just the "how", so you can integrate many different techniques into one.

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Sure, it’s nice to know “the why”. But it’s not necessary! If the goal is to create good bonsai, it is merely enough to know what works.

Student: “Why do this?”

Master: “Because it works.”

Now, as a student, If you know something works, then YOU can research why it works. It’s not necessary to know the why for it to have a positive effect.

Adair M said:

Sure, it’s nice to know “the why”. But it’s not necessary! If the goal is to create good bonsai, it is merely enough to know what works.

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I don’t entirely agree with that. Sure you might get the same positive effect. But, for more advanced techniques, not knowing the why can result in sloppiness or even just losing the subtleties that could be the difference between success and failure. It also makes it more difficult to make the slight adjustments that could be needed to account for variables and, worse, result in parts of the technique being lost because nobody understands why they were important in the first place. It may be faster to do something a “new” way but if you understand the intricacies you might realize why the old way is the better way.

Adair M said:

Sure, it’s nice to know “the why”. But it’s not necessary! If the goal is to create good bonsai, it is merely enough to know what works.

Student: “Why do this?”

Master: “Because it works.”

Now, as a student, If you know something works, then YOU can research why it works. It’s not necessary to know the why for it to have a positive effect.

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Im not saying learn the why before the how or the how before the why, just that its worth learning both, so one can understand and implement.

If I ask someone why they are doing something, I expect they would have an answer.

Orion_metalhead said:

Q: Are their trees better than mine?

If no, then I wouldnt put much weight in their knowledge as related to my own. If yes, then there is knowledge I can learn from them and I take notice. Its not that you have to pick one or the other to use as your teacher. See what all of them do, and then contemplate which works best for you. Learn the "why", not just the "how", so you can integrate many different techniques into one.

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Which is more or less the way it is now. And if you ask me, it works. May I ask what is broken?

Orion_metalhead said:

Im not saying learn the why before the how or the how before the why, just that its worth learning both, so one can understand and implement.

If I ask someone why they are doing something, I expect they would have an answer.

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See, that attitude will impede your learning.

What if the answer isn’t known?

Let me give you an example: Back around 1980, I first learned about decandling JBP. How the second flush would have short needles. I didnt know anything about “auxin”. I didn’t know it’s because they naturally live in typhoon prone areas. All I knew (was told) “cut off the spring candles, and you will get a second flush of growth that will have shorter needles”.

Of course now, I know a whole lot more about it. And I know all kinds of ways to enhance the effect.

But, my ignorance of all the fancy things, or the science, didn’t stop it from working.

I think the key to learning is to find the right instructor for what you want to do. In any field this is true but doubly for bonsai. You need to find the right instruction for the type of trees you want to make as well as someone who understands your climate. I think that fragmented learning from too many sources can just muddy the water and lead to frustration. Traveling teachers at clubs can help you to narrow your choices when you're just trying to find a teacher, but in depth with one who motivates you and is into the same things you are will exponentially take you to the next level. I understand travel burnout after being on the road for long years, and it's a real thing. And the teachers are not paid near enough for the trips and time and stress they are put through. Some are still expected to stay in hosts homes instead of being automatically booked into the nicest hotel you can offer them. Who wants to talk bonsai after hours to amateurs after doing a whole day workshop, it's ridiculous. I think that hands on is the only correct way to learn, online will never compete after you know the difference. I intend to continue my study group with my chosen mentor, and if I have to pack up a rental van and drive to do it I will. Of course I intend to offer an obscene amount of money to continue having them at my house, LOL...

A question for the masses.

What if your favourite bonsai pro/artist offered one on one Skype lesson/consulting at a probably pretty high hourly rate?

Maybe you’ve got a tree with lots of options and you can’t decide on one direction so you plonk it onto a turntable in front of the computer camera, spin it around, discuss merits of different choices. Maybe diagnos an ailing tree in the yard as well.. Ask some questions in general, things you wonder about. Hands off but brains on, maybe a good compromise sometimes eh? Maybe that would be an attractive means of teaching and reaching clients for a pro whose been one on too many airplanes lately, or maybe not, dunno.

wireme said:

A question for the masses.

What if your favourite bonsai pro/artist offered one on one Skype lesson/consulting at a probably pretty high hourly rate?

Maybe you’ve got a tree with lots of options and you can’t decide on one direction so you plonk it onto a turntable in front of the computer camera, spin it around, discuss merits of different choices. Maybe diagnos an ailing tree in the yard as well.. Ask some questions in general, things you wonder about. Hands off but brains on, maybe a good compromise sometimes eh? Maybe that would be an attractive means of teaching and reaching clients for a pro whose been one on too many airplanes lately, or maybe not, dunno.

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Owen actually offered that for a time, maybe he can comment on how it worked. I still think that you can't really see it till you can put your hands on it.