What to do about early bud break?

penumbra

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,377
Reaction score
15,841
Location
Front Royal, VA
USDA Zone
6
This contorted quince was shipped from Garden Grove CA last week. It was dormant when packed but 2 days in mail and you can see what happened. My thought is just to put it in a shady spot with other plants waiting for spring. Don't mind losing the flowers but I really don't want it leafing out. I would put in in the fridge but I already have it full of other trees and cuttings.
What are your thoughts?
278598
 

Lars Grimm

Chumono
Messages
837
Reaction score
1,604
Location
Durham, North Carolina
USDA Zone
7
This contorted quince was shipped from Garden Grove CA last week. It was dormant when packed but 2 days in mail and you can see what happened. My thought is just to put it in a shady spot with other plants waiting for spring. Don't mind losing the flowers but I really don't want it leafing out. I would put in in the fridge but I already have it full of other trees and cuttings.
What are your thoughts?
View attachment 278598
I pull off all my flowers on the quince in development because I want it to save the energy to push out growth elsewhere.
 

penumbra

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,377
Reaction score
15,841
Location
Front Royal, VA
USDA Zone
6
Thanks. I had considered that and may still do it, but these things grow like weeds around here. It will at least double its size this year.
 

WNC Bonsai

Omono
Messages
1,866
Reaction score
2,047
Location
Western NC
USDA Zone
7b

Paradox

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,338
Reaction score
11,405
Location
Long Island, NY
USDA Zone
7a
If those plants are in leaf, the roots have lost most all of their winter hardness. IF they are leafing out, THEY HAVE SATISFIED THEIR CHILLING HOUR REQUIREMENTS. They are now vulnerable to freezing and should be completely protected from that--cold frame probably isn't going to cut it. You are going to have to bring them inside ahead of the coming deep freeze next week. Failure to do that will result in winter kill, perhaps some, perhaps all of the tree.

The trees CANNOT be pushed back into dormancy once growth has begun (bud break is when leaves begin peeling away from the main bud--even just a bit that is barely noticeable).

You are finding out why a cold frame in N.C. is a very bad idea.


I agree that once a tree begins to push, it must have better protection or it will most likely die.

We are also experiencing very warm temperatures for my area the last couple of days.
This is why I monitor weather like a hawk and when the temps will be warmer, my coldframe gets opened so it doesnt get even warmer in there.
Its also why my cold frame is against the north side of my house, in the shade which helps to mitigate warming from the sun.
My weather is a bit colder than where the OP is and there is only so much you can do in any case when mother nature sends you 60 degrees when you should be getting 30 degrees.

As for the fish surviving freezing. The key word in the linked information is that SOME species can survive freezing due to an antifreeze compound in their blood.
However it is a very select few that can survive that, the vast majority of species will die if they are exposed to temperatures below their tolerance, much like trees.
Once again, there are no absolutes and no scenario that works and applies to every fish or tree, with the exception of these.

1. if you dont water a bonsai tree, it will die
2. if you leave a fish, any fish out of water long enough, it too will die
 
Last edited:

Paradox

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,338
Reaction score
11,405
Location
Long Island, NY
USDA Zone
7a

From Wiki article on anitfreeze protiens:

"One recent, successful business endeavor has been the introduction of AnitFreeze Protiens into ice cream and yogurt products. This ingredient, labelled ice-structuring protein, has been approved by the Food and Drug Administration. The proteins are isolated from fish and replicated, on a larger scale, in genetically modified yeast."

The stuff in ice cream isnt directly from fish, but copied and replicated by yeast
 

Carol 83

Flower Girl
Messages
11,120
Reaction score
27,117
Location
IL
From Wiki article on anitfreeze protiens:

"One recent, successful business endeavor has been the introduction of AnitFreeze Protiens into ice cream and yogurt products. This ingredient, labelled ice-structuring protein, has been approved by the Food and Drug Administration. The proteins are isolated from fish and replicated, on a larger scale, in genetically modified yeast."

The stuff in ice cream isnt directly from fish, but copied and replicated by yeast
I don't even like ice cream, but thanks for clearing that up for those who do and can still enjoy it without thinking about fish parts.
 

eryk2kartman

Chumono
Messages
616
Reaction score
516
Location
Ireland
USDA Zone
8b
Same here, very mild and warm,
I missed repotting for my Chinese Quince - its already leafed out
but my first repot of 2020 was small Lilac :)
i only hope we wont get any hard frost later on..........
 

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,182
Reaction score
22,180
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
I said cold frame, but it is actually a shed with no windows and a temperature triggered heating element so it never goes below 32 degrees. It can get a little warmer than the ambient air though so I try to keep the door ajar during the day when I am home.
You're trying to walk too fine a line here. The enclosed shed combined with the heat, as well as the narrow temp margin you have set have all combined to "force" your trees to move waaaay too early. All of the species you've listed are well able to handle a N.C. winter.

Trying too hard at winter storage can result in early bud break. It's hard to manage. Trying to keep track of total chilling hours is kind of futile, since you have no real way of knowing what the trees are experiencing.

Mulch is your friend, even for small trees. I mulch all my trees (big and small--100 lb - 2 lbs under mulch for the winter here in No.Va. I use large, deep mulch beds in a shaded section of my backyard (no enclosure or top covering) and stack the small trees on the surface of larger trees, then pile mulch up to the trunks of the smaller. This takes advantage of the ambient ground "heat' and "heat" is relative.

I've faced subzero F winters doing this in the last twenty years or more. I keep alot of southern tree species, BC, cedar elm and live oak. All less cold hardy that your quince. Haven't had a problem.

The mulch pile acts as heat/cold sump. The larger the mass of the pile, the more stable the temps underneath it. This keeps roots "warm" in the winter, but I'm not concerned much about temps down into the teens. The mulch traps the ground heat, not the air temps.

Winter storage boils down to "KEEP THE TREES AS COLD AS THEY CAN STAND IT FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE" That means don't be too concerned about the exact specifics of chilling hours, exact temperatures.
 

Lars Grimm

Chumono
Messages
837
Reaction score
1,604
Location
Durham, North Carolina
USDA Zone
7
You're trying to walk too fine a line here. The enclosed shed combined with the heat, as well as the narrow temp margin you have set have all combined to "force" your trees to move waaaay too early. All of the species you've listed are well able to handle a N.C. winter.

Trying too hard at winter storage can result in early bud break. It's hard to manage. Trying to keep track of total chilling hours is kind of futile, since you have no real way of knowing what the trees are experiencing.

Mulch is your friend, even for small trees. I mulch all my trees (big and small--100 lb - 2 lbs under mulch for the winter here in No.Va. I use large, deep mulch beds in a shaded section of my backyard (no enclosure or top covering) and stack the small trees on the surface of larger trees, then pile mulch up to the trunks of the smaller. This takes advantage of the ambient ground "heat' and "heat" is relative.

I've faced subzero F winters doing this in the last twenty years or more. I keep alot of southern tree species, BC, cedar elm and live oak. All less cold hardy that your quince. Haven't had a problem.

The mulch pile acts as heat/cold sump. The larger the mass of the pile, the more stable the temps underneath it. This keeps roots "warm" in the winter, but I'm not concerned much about temps down into the teens. The mulch traps the ground heat, not the air temps.

Winter storage boils down to "KEEP THE TREES AS COLD AS THEY CAN STAND IT FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE" That means don't be too concerned about the exact specifics of chilling hours, exact temperatures.

Why do you stack the small trees on top of the larger ones? Is it just so they don't get lost/damaged with all the mulch?
 

A. Gorilla

Omono
Messages
1,325
Reaction score
2,158
Location
N/E Illinois
USDA Zone
5b
Or do they?
View attachment 278590

Specifically the antifreeze part.

Hell alligators can survive it too!




Like .....

Asking feller if he's gotten that far into dormancy already and previously being concerned with the fact that he's keeping things indoors that shouldn't be indoors on the first place?

Oh.

Ok.

Sorce
I left some crayfish in a bucket outside and they froze and reanimated. But that was weird and unplanned.

I couldn't help myself. To make absolutely sure, I put him in the indoor freezer and 100% made sure it was encased in solid ice.

He came "alive" again!
 

Underdog

Masterpiece
Messages
2,677
Reaction score
6,873
Location
Ohio
USDA Zone
6
NCSU has a website that tracks it. They explain the calculation method down at the bottom, but it looks like the Richardson or Utah model. Looks like Durham is at 990 hours as of yesterday.

Very cool site. My closest station is showing 1551 hrs in WV which is a bit warmer than here. Surprising as this has been such a mild winter.
Thanks @Cofga
 
Last edited:

WNC Bonsai

Omono
Messages
1,866
Reaction score
2,047
Location
Western NC
USDA Zone
7b
Very cool site. My closest station is showing 1551 hrs in WV which is a bit warmer than here. Surprising as this has been such a mild winter.
Mild temps actually work in favor of chill hours. Most track the hours between 32 and 45 degrees, although this is a more refined version that gives partial hours for slightly warmer temps and negatives above about 65. As rockm says the important thing it to keep the trees roots from experiencing the very warm temps and that is what the mulch layer does. I’m looking at mid 60s here through Wed. But the trees are mulched and generally facing north So onky the one quince has started to move.

The interesting thing is that with my quince I have 3, and in one case I put 2 in one pot together. Of those 2 one is budding and the other isn’t! Ay any rate I guess both will have come into the garage until spring.
 
Last edited:

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,182
Reaction score
22,180
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
Why do you stack the small trees on top of the larger ones? Is it just so they don't get lost/damaged with all the mulch?
Basically, yes. The depth of the mulch for the larger trees is too deep for the smaller ones. I've found that this can be a good way to take advantage of the mass of the larger mulch pile, instead of a smaller one for the smaller trees. Could be done both ways, though.
 

Lars Grimm

Chumono
Messages
837
Reaction score
1,604
Location
Durham, North Carolina
USDA Zone
7
Walking home today, I noticed some landscaping flowering cherries and forsythia had started blooming. The high 20s next week might be a bit rough on some of them.
 

penumbra

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,377
Reaction score
15,841
Location
Front Royal, VA
USDA Zone
6
Walking home today, I noticed some landscaping flowering cherries and forsythia had started blooming. The high 20s next week might be a bit rough on some of them.
Understand that but its not anything they have not experienced before.
 

penumbra

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,377
Reaction score
15,841
Location
Front Royal, VA
USDA Zone
6
Winter storage boils down to "KEEP THE TREES AS COLD AS THEY CAN STAND IT FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE" That means don't be too concerned about the exact specifics of chilling hours, exact temperatures.
This is really the heart of it. Don't be overzealous in trying to protect trees from temperatures that are normal for them. Save these extra measures for plants that are in a cooler zone than they are used to or plants from cuttings or layers that are not quite ready for the real world. Everything else leave outside. Mulching or a frost blanket at the most is more than sufficient and many plants can just stay on the bench all winter if suited to your zone. The only thing in my coldframe are new young maples from the west coast, and borderline plants like crepe myrtle. My coldframe is never closed unless it is going to be in the lower twenty's or below. It is wide open the rest of the time. It is also in the shade.
 
Top Bottom